Author Topic: NO UNS  (Read 9285 times)

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Offline copedaddy

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Offline Rulesman

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Offline SCline

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2017, 11:24:36 PM »
It was called. The 15 yard penalty was enforced on the kickoff.

Offline mardjam

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 08:17:26 AM »
It was, but should they have nullified the TD because the player starts the flip before the ball crosses the goal line? Then, the enforcement of 15 yards should've been from the 1 yard line.

It seems they missed a facemask too, but not sure if the defensive player pulls the facemask.



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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 09:42:01 AM »
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions.  As much as I don't like these types of antics, we have to leave opinions and emotions out of what we do.  The ball carrier thrusts the ball forward right as he gets to the goal line.  It is very possible the ball broke the plane of the goal line before the 'flip' started.  That would make the flip a dead-ball foul, and enforced correctly.
As for the possible facemask, the hand grazes the facemask alright, but you can't positively see the fingers get into the mask.  The head can get turned even without the fingers getting into the mask.  The inconclusiveness of the action would make a call or a no-call supportable.

Robert

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 03:44:19 PM »
It was, but should they have nullified the TD because the player starts the flip before the ball crosses the goal line? Then, the enforcement of 15 yards should've been from the 1 yard line.

Both the AR and CCA manual state deadball enforcement on these.


Offline #92

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 03:58:02 AM »
The head can get turned even without the fingers getting into the mask. The inconclusiveness of the action would make a call or a no-call supportable.
I (as U) actually "overruled" a flag from the BJ for PF/FMM, because the hand of the Team B player did turn the ball carrier's head, but without grasping any opening. More like one would spin a globe around its axis (trying to find the best analogy here, the head was obviously not spun, only turned 90°). Team B player immediately let go of the head, so the contact was not continuous. We talked about it, and since there was no grasping of a helmet opening we waved the flag.

Correct judgement?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 04:41:26 AM »
You talk about it, tell B what you saw, and work together to get it right. BUT... let B make the correction by picking up his flag and waiving it off. For you to “overrule” him is not the right way to handle it.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline #92

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 06:18:22 AM »
You talk about it, tell B what you saw, and work together to get it right. BUT... let B make the correction by picking up his flag and waiving it off. For you to “overrule” him is not the right way to handle it.
That's what I meant. "My input in the discussion made the crew agree to waive the flag".

Let me put it that way then.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 06:36:45 AM »
Firstly, the most related AR (9-2-1-IV) directs us to administer as a dead-ball foul when it is not clear when the diving action began - which truly applies in this case.  But, to be clear, had the diving action clearly started in the field of play, that should be administered as a live-ball foul, with 3 & 1 enforcement, thus, canceling any apparent score.

#92, IMHO, for what it is worth, your judgment was correct, based on the supporting video evidence.  Perhaps your explanation above was mis-stated, in that you simply conferred with the B, and advised him that you had a great look at the play, and there was no actual grasping of the mask, thus, he conceded and voluntarily decided to retract the foul call.  As Rulesman alludes, that is the correct process, and should be used very sparingly - only in instances where you can be sure the retraction will be supported with video evidence.  I had such a circumstance once during my collegiate career (S, at the time).  I had a great look at a play in which our B flagged a DPI.  There simply was no material restriction.  After the play, I went to the B and advised him that I had a great look at the play, and there just wasn't anything there.  He said he thought he saw an arm grab, but was somewhat screened by the bodies.  Upon my assurance that there was no material restriction, he advised the Referee that there was no foul.  Our coordinator applauded both of us for getting the call right.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 09:04:49 AM »
He said he thought he saw an arm grab...
See what happens when you think?  :D

Heard a Supervisor put it this way: “You’re not paid to think, you’re paid to know.”
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline clearwall

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Re: NO UNS
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 12:03:10 PM »
Can replay not help with the spot of the ball on this? It is a scoring play...