Author Topic: Live ball equipment violation  (Read 4277 times)

Offline ncwingman

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Live ball equipment violation
« on: October 15, 2017, 02:18:08 PM »
We had an odd play that I realized after the game we signaled incorrectly (and I believe enforced wrong as well). 1st and 10, A7 goes to hand off the ball, realized the RB is not where he should be an then quickly throws a pass to A83, which falls incomplete. A83, not thinking it was going to be involved in the play had failed to remove his mouth guard from his facemask and put it in his mouth -- which is failure to wear required equipment during the down. (He had been previously warned about this as well -- he had a habit for not putting his mouthpiece in if he wasn't going to be involved in the first play of a series off the bench).

We enforced the five yard penalty, and replayed 1st and 15. However, since it was during the down (and not killed before the play) this is a violation of 9-9 and not 3-6-2d, and this should have been a succeeding spot foul (which wouldn't have changed the yardline of the next play), but this means it should have been 2nd down, correct? There's no case play that explicitly states this, but the succeeding spot enforcement says this has to be true.

Furthermore, the appropriate signal is listed as S27-23 for violating 9-9 (The WH only gave S23 in our game). Since it is only a 5 yard penalty, I assume S27 is used under the context of a noncontact foul, not a USC, which means you get to explain to the coach of B why it was only 5 (not 15) yards and why that foul wouldn't count towards disqualification. There are no other fouls that use S27 that would not be 15 yard penalties and/or would not count towards disqualification, therefore this seems like it would be a very confusing (albeit unusual) signal. There are many other "non contact" fouls that we don't use S27 for, is there a reason why this one still includes it?

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2017, 05:19:48 PM »
It is a succeeding spot foul, so IMO the down counts, we mark off 5 yds and play next down. I always thought the UNS was  charged to the HC, who supposedly had verified to the WH before the game that all his players were legally and properly equipped. 9-8-1h. But then that would make it a 15yd penalty.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 05:21:34 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 06:41:51 PM »
9-9,  5 yards , succeeding spot.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2017, 08:46:47 PM »
The appropriate signal is listed as S27-23 for violating 9-9 (The WH only gave S23 in our game). Since it is only a 5 yard penalty, I assume S27 is used under the context of a noncontact foul, not a USC, which means you get to explain to the coach of B why it was only 5 (not 15) yards and why that foul wouldn't count towards disqualification.
Ralph,
Can you explain why the signal for this penalty is listed as S23 and S27?
When it would appear that only S23 is needed?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2017, 10:05:15 PM »
Ralph,
Can you explain why the signal for this penalty is listed as S23 and S27?
When it would appear that only S23 is needed?
See 9-8-1h and 1-5-6. As in the case with many other rules, a single one standing on its own (in this case 9-9) does not fully cover the situation. I would also assume the language in 9-8-1h makes this foul count as one of the head coach's UNS allotment. Correct, Ralph? That being said, don't let it happen!
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 09:46:13 AM »
That being said, don't let it happen!

I was trying not to, but he lined up in the slot as a back looking in towards the ball, so he never looked at me until after the pass -- which is when I could get a good look at his facemask. I warned him in the first quarter and he was doing good... then he forgot after halftime.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 09:54:34 AM »
I was trying not to, but he lined up in the slot as a back looking in towards the ball, so he never looked at me until after the pass -- which is when I could get a good look at his facemask. I warned him in the first quarter and he was doing good... then he forgot after halftime.
At that point you have no choice.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 10:10:56 AM »
Ralph,
Can you explain why the signal for this penalty is listed as S23 and S27?
When it would appear that only S23 is needed?


#27 for noncontact foul is an abridged version of : "This penalty is added to the succeeding spot because it either (A) Had no baring on the outcome of the play-USC, illegal substation {big ole Bubba wandering out on field to see what's happening during the play}, or the topic play; (2) intentional pass interference - called as often as Halley's Comet passes - so that extra 15 isn't considered a multiple foul."

In pregame a coach verifies that all players are legally equipped . He doesn't verify that his players will then wear it properly - that's why the 5 yarders come it. Remember, guys, to flag it if you see it prior to snap as a preventive measure. Also remember to include signal #21, is this is in the delay of game family. With DOG, clock starts on the snap - this prevents big ole' Bubba from spitting out his mouthpiece to keep the clock running.

 :puke:       ^flag
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 10:20:27 AM by Ralph Damren »

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 12:00:43 PM »
9-8-1h seems to imply the Head coach is responsible to make sure the players wear required equipment during the down. It gives an unsportsmanlike foul as being the failure of the coach to have the player wear and/or use legal and/or required equipment.
How does this not apply?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 12:22:00 PM »
9-8-1h seems to imply the Head coach is responsible to make sure the players wear required equipment during the down. It gives an unsportsmanlike foul as being the failure of the coach to have the player wear and/or use legal and/or required equipment.
How does this not apply?
I agree. It should apply.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Online CalhounLJ

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Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 12:30:18 PM »
There’s actually casebook support for this, but it deals with an illegal eyeshield instead of required equipment. But the way the rule reads, it should apply to required equipment as well. IMH, and often-wrong opinion. 🤓


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Offline OHref71

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 01:24:42 PM »
In Ohio this year on an experimental basis we are not throwing flags for missing or illegal or failure to wear equipment.  We treat it like a helmet coming off and just send them to the sideline for 1 play.  It has actually worked well and now we see players covering their shoulder pads and doing other clean up without our having to request it.  Also when we ask now a player knows they cannot ignore us because if we ask and he ignores us and just gets into formation with his shoulder pads out we kill it and send him to the sideline.

Offline js in sc

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 02:24:59 PM »
In Ohio this year on an experimental basis we are not throwing flags for missing or illegal or failure to wear equipment.  We treat it like a helmet coming off and just send them to the sideline for 1 play.  It has actually worked well and now we see players covering their shoulder pads and doing other clean up without our having to request it.  Also when we ask now a player knows they cannot ignore us because if we ask and he ignores us and just gets into formation with his shoulder pads out we kill it and send him to the sideline.
I agree.  Although it is not a statewide initiative, some of the crews I have been on this year in SC are doing the same thing.  Not only does it get the players' attention, it really targets the coaches who are getting more involved.  We tell them before the game, if they are improperly equipped, we are going to send them out for a play.  Nothing works better than sending the star player to the sideline in a critical point in the game.  He won't do it again.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 02:26:21 PM »
I saw a great example of corrective officiating in a college game Saturday. the QB came out and immediately I saw his mouthpiece stuck in his helmet. Apparently the WH saw it too, because at the end of the play he eased up beside him, said something, and immediately the QB reached up, grabbed his mouthpiece and put it where it belonged. No flag, no foul, just a quick word, and all was well.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 04:51:56 PM »
I agree.  Although it is not a statewide initiative, some of the crews I have been on this year in SC are doing the same thing.  Not only does it get the players' attention, it really targets the coaches who are getting more involved.  We tell them before the game, if they are improperly equipped, we are going to send them out for a play.  Nothing works better than sending the star player to the sideline in a critical point in the game.  He won't do it again.
Any pushback from the coach who wants to know where that interpretation is in the rule book? Itís one thing if itís supported as a state-wide initiative. Itís something else if itís not.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline js in sc

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 07:15:48 PM »
Any pushback from the coach who wants to know where that interpretation is in the rule book? Itís one thing if itís supported as a state-wide initiative. Itís something else if itís not.
We explain that it is improper equipment and rather than hit him with a 15 yard UC, we will send them out.  They are grateful.  Have not had any problems.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2017, 10:51:56 AM »
9-8-1h : Coach has verified that all his players have legal or/and required equipment. Kid shows up in game with illegal or missing required equipment = 15 yards- USC -head coach.

3-6-2d : Kid has all required and legal equipment, but doesn't bother to wear it properly = 5 yards.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2017, 11:50:21 AM »
Makes sense, especially in light of 9-9.
Stir-pot question simply for the sake of argument: Does that mean if a kid shows up on the field without a mouthpiece, it's 15UNS on coach, but if he has one dangling from his hat but is not wearing it, it's 5?
I'll hang up and listen. :sTiR:

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2017, 12:14:04 PM »
Makes sense, especially in light of 9-9.
Stir-pot question simply for the sake of argument: Does that mean if a kid shows up on the field without a mouthpiece, it's 15UNS on coach, but if he has one dangling from his hat but is not wearing it, it's 5?
I'll hang up and listen. :sTiR:
AYUH, and 'spect coach will be dag-glum sure all players have mouthpieces.

We used ta' : Tweet our tweeter and yell : "Tugboat, Bubba, Forklift, Porkchop and Tank (offensive linemen) git your dag-glum mouthpieces in  P_S !" and then,again, hit RFP. We did this often  deadhorse:

Now we : Blow and ^flag . Coach got  >:( at the player. Now we don't see it no more ^talk ^talk yEs: (5 man crew). Let 'em know that your both watching :o and flagging  ^flag and the problem ain't a problem no more. :laugh:

Online CalhounLJ

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Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 02:24:54 PM »
No doubt


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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2017, 02:48:16 PM »
Just donít make up rules as is suggested by sending him out for one play.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2017, 03:35:39 PM »
We have been told by our association to send the player off for one play. I know that there is no support in the rules for this but we tell both coaches before the game is a player comes out not wearing his equipment properly, he will be sent off to get it straightened out. This works well. As a U I remind the any players that are wearing required equipment improperly that if they come out on the field that way, they will be sent off to fix it.

A couple of weeks ago, we advise both coaches of that this will happen. First offensive series, WR comes out with his knees not covered. LJ notices, whistles, kills the clock and sends the kid to the sideline. Replacement comes out and lines up. R winds the clock. LJ notices the replacements knees are also exposed so he whistles, kills the clock and sends the kid to the sideline. Second replacement comes out with his knees covered. We didn't see a knee cap the rest of the game. What took about a minute of time to make the point that we were going to enforce the uniform rules fixed an all game problem without having to flag anyone.

I know some people will say we should flag a player for not properly wearing required equipment but this is supported by rule 1-5-5 which states any missing or illegal equipment found must be corrected before allowing participation. We do not allow the player to participate in the down if his equipment is not legal.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2017, 03:42:56 PM »
Just donít make up rules as is suggested by sending him out for one play.
I don't believe that we are making up rules by sending a player out to correct illegal equipment.  In fact the rules require us to do so.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2017, 05:08:34 PM »
I don't believe that we are making up rules by sending a player out to correct illegal equipment.  In fact the rules require us to do so.
Rule reference?
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Live ball equipment violation
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2017, 06:51:59 PM »
Rule reference?

1-5-5 and 1-5-6 require that missing/damaged/improper equipment must be made legal prior to a player being allowed to play.  By rule we're not supposed to allow the ball to be snapped if we know ahead of time that the equipment rule is not being satisfied.  Per 1-5-5 that's on us.  The updated references in the 2017 rule book (3-5-2b, 3-5-5b, 3-5-7e) add more details to the process.  Our supervisor has made it very clear that we are not to knowingly allow an improperly equipped player to participate until the equipment issue is addressed and unless the HC is willing to use a charged TO to fix the problem the player must leave the field.

Also from the 2015 NFHS Point of Emphasis memo:

Illegal Equipment

No player shall participate while wearing illegal equipment. This applies to any equipment, which in the opinion of the umpire is dangerous, confusing or inappropriate. The coachesí pregame verification to the referee and umpire that all players are properly equipped in compliance with the rules also includes the exterior helmet warning labels. Coaches should bring casts, braces and other such items to the game officialsí attention so that the umpire can inspect the items.

Players should be instructed on how to wear equipment properly, and must wear all mandatory equipment when participating in the game. When a playerís equipment becomes damaged during play, it must be corrected before the player may participate further.

Players cannot be allowed to participate in the game, and substitutes cannot be allowed to become players when they are not properly wearing required equipment or when they are wearing illegal equipment. Game officials should not allow players to enter the game or let the ball become live when they observe infractions of the equipment rule. It is not always necessary for a game official to call a foul and penalize a team if game officials are able to make the player and coach aware of the problem so it can be fixed before the ball becomes live.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 08:24:15 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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