Author Topic: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one  (Read 740 times)

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8406
  • FAN REACTION: +223/-239
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« on: November 25, 2017, 07:40:36 AM »
Baylor -TCU.     Melee breaks out.  Both teams get all team given an UNS.  I am thinking rule change coming.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 333
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-38
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 07:44:04 AM »
What?  Melee?  Two good Christian schools?  Nahhhhhhhhh. :!#

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8406
  • FAN REACTION: +223/-239
  • When you quit learning you quit living

Offline Etref

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1676
  • FAN REACTION: +55/-22
  • " I don't make the rules coach!"
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 08:58:31 PM »
Wonder if we could give the team unsportsmanlike at the coin toss?  nAnA
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline ChicagoZebra

  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2017, 09:13:14 AM »
Wonder if we could give the team unsportsmanlike at the coin toss?  nAnA

But seriously... I hope this method doesn't get overused. At some point doesn't it cross into lazy officiating? And we get a star WR booted for the game for celebrating a TD after he wasn't really involved in the altercation?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 333
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-38
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2017, 09:51:21 AM »
But seriously... I hope this method doesn't get overused. At some point doesn't it cross into lazy officiating? And we get a star WR booted for the game for celebrating a TD after he wasn't really involved in the altercation?

Not arguing that this 'mass' foul should be used (or not used).  Different subject altogether.

But, if it does, the WR's subsequent fate is in his own hands.  He would know he already has one UNS (deserved or not).  If he wants to be sure he stays in the game, he just drops the ball (after scoring), runs to his teammates and chest/butt bumps, and runs off to his team area (where he can dance, prance, and romance all he wants).  If he CHOOSES to do something outside the defined bounds of sportsmanship, then he accepts the ramifications of such behavior.  If he doesn't want to leave it to our judgment as to whether something exceeds the boundaries, then he shouldn't even approach the fence.  The rules are made by coaches, not officials. Let the coaches take the responsibility for this, for not doing a better job of coaching players to not push the envelope of the rules they have written.

Robert

Offline Morningrise

  • *
  • Posts: 438
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-5
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »
One time during a huge skirmish in a high school game, my crew and I tried to get numbers for every player we saw committing an identifiable act that went beyond the ubiquitous pushing. We conferenced and realized that we had six numbers and they were all on the same team. But there was no way that the opponent was innocent, not by a long shot. It takes two to tango. But hadn't identified any specific players' numbers for that other team.

Enforcing all six UNSs against one team would be terribly inequitable. So we basically decided to pick a player to make an example of, so that the UNSs would be 6-1 and offset, instead of 6-0 for a ninety-yard penalty. (give or take some half-the-distance math)

I wrestled with that decision, saddling one kid with a UNS just because his team wasn't deserving of ninety free yards. It didn't seem right, even though the alternative seemed even less right.

Turns out I could have just saddled FIFTY kids with a UNS instead. Is that better or worse?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 333
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-38
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Happened again - you get one , he gets one, everybody gets one
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 11:10:48 AM »
Turns out I could have just saddled FIFTY kids with a UNS instead. Is that better or worse?

I doubt this is going to answer your question, but, the door is open, so I will enter and tell this (true) story. Keep in mind that this event happened before the current two-UNS automatic DQ rule, and the non-football related physical actions being treated as UNS (instead of UNR) rule.  It was also before the practice of identifying the first offender and penalizing only him was made available.

Had a rivalry collegiate game, workin' "S" at the time.  Opening kickoff - OPENING KICKOFF - returner gets tackled near his own sideline.  Due to a normal gathering of players, as well as offensive players moving onto field, I couldn't get to the opposite side of the players involved in the tackle, but I saw opponents face-to-face on the other side of the crowd.  The home team player (I'll call him A99) then head-butts the visiting team player.  Still trying to work through/around the crowd, I lost sight of the visiting team player, but I get the home team player's number (A99), at about the time another visiting team player starts tusslin' with him. More players step into the act, just grabbing, bumping, holding - nothing egregious.  But it took some effort to get everybody separated.  Honestly, I lost track of the visiting team player that I believed was involved in the initial tussle with A99, but, by his actions, I picked B1 as the culprit.  I reported fouls AND DQs of A99 and B1 to the R.  The visiting team began protesting vigorously that B1 wasn't the right guy (an admission, of sorts, that someone on their team was guilty - just not B1).  Drawing upon my old minor-league baseball umpiring experience, when you can't identify the guy chirpin' at ya, you tell the manager to pick somebody, cuz, somebody's going.  So, I told the HC, if it wasn't B1, who was it?  He eventually picked a guy (B80), and we DQd A99 and B80.  Everybody seemed OK, and we finished the game with everything under control.
Well, that didn't go over so well with the conference.  The parents of B80 gave the commissioner grief about their son being DQd.  (I think they were really annoyed that the HC picked their son to be the one to sit down - even though he was a low-tier player.)  The commissioner gave the coordinator grief.  The coordinator gave me grief.  The coordinator agreed that we needed to do something to keep the game under control, but DQing an innocent guy wasn't the way to do it. 

I offered to apologize to the player and his family, but was never asked to do that.  Needless to say, I was not in good favor with that coordinator thereafter.

How does that mesh with the mass UNS?  I don't know.  The conference didn't like the "pick a guy" method - but, that was a DQ, not just a UNS.  They, and the NCAA might be OK with a mass UNS, in the event of multiple, multiple violators - when identification isn't feasible.  The mass UNS would seem to be a "gentler & kinder" resolution to a messy situation.  Major conferences with lots of video might prefer to offset everything with no UNS, and then let the conference office review video and decide on additional punishments.  But, that won't work so well with D2 and D3 schools, with limited video.

I'm guessing this issue will be discussed at the off-season meetings (if not sooner), and direction offered.

Robert