Author Topic: Illegal substitution on defense.  (Read 2108 times)

Offline yarnnelg

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Illegal substitution on defense.
« on: November 25, 2017, 07:11:36 PM »
I'll call a spade a spade here.

Alabama Offense substitutes on 4th and 9.
Auburn defense substitutes 12th man leaving the field.
Ball snapped past Hurts while 4 offensive players are heading to their positions.
Result of the play is about a 15 yard loss.

Replay Booth ruling.

Illegal substitution, 5 yard penalty, replay at 4th and 4

How about, illegal shift, illegal motion, illegal snap?

The penalty cannot be a live ball defensive penalty when the offense snapped the ball illegally, can it?

At most, offsetting penalties and replay the down 4th and 9

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 08:29:55 PM »
Replay got their part right. Shift not reviewable by rule. Thatís on the crew. Play should have been shut down making the 12 call moot. Isnít that what RR wants?
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Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 08:53:29 PM »
Thought about that and agree 100%.

The only thing I can think of, is a group of officials counting players and caught with their pants down on the unexpected snap.
No one in the stadium expected the snap.
Missing four players in motion is well worth that crew sitting at home while other folks go Bowling.

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 12:29:04 PM »
Let's expand it a bit. I have to see the replay to verify.

Alabama substituted after the previous play. The "C" Official never moved from behind the QB, the White Hat never held things up until the defense could finish their substitutions.

The center snapped the ball and caught everyone by surprise. In fact the TV crew had to run a endzone to endzone replay to show the snap. Chaos ensued in the scramble by Hurts to recover the ball about 20 yards from the LOS.

In other words, the only one playing football was the center and he was wayyyyyyyy off the mark. And it was obvious the crew around the LOS must have been watching cheerleaders.

Expand the rule for 2 minutes and under. Everything mechanical was wrong if the substitution occurred. Everything mechanical was wrong because the crew relaxed for a second. Five Officials missed at least 5 players on offense in motion, who were never set. At least decide if the mechanical part was correct.

I work the sidelines. If the 12th man is coming straight at me, in my field of vision, I am off the field and watching my responsibilities the offensive line, receivers and the snap, I am not riveted on the 12th man. . If that 12th man leaves my field of vision, the corner of my eye, he's off the field.  If he's still there at the snap, he's on the field. How do you miss everything coming straight at you? All players in motion were coming toward the Auburn bench, the snap is the key, nothing happens to anyone without a snap. Too many cooks counting heads and not enough watching the game.

There should have been a cascade of flags during the rush to cover the players scrambling for the snap.

Illegal substitution is a live ball, not set at the snap is a live ball. Offsetting and replay the down.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 07:33:09 PM »
Havenít seen the play, so not really commenting on anything other than the statements made in this thread.

From what Iíve read - and Iím having to interpret a little - it sounds like Team B had a 12th player attempting to depart, and it sounds like B had not violated 3-5-2-c-2 (more than 11 players in formation too long).  So, the departing player simply had to get off the field before the snap to avoid a LIVE-BALL foul.  Apparently, he didnít get off the field in time.  So, that would be a flag for a substitution infraction, if there is a snap.

But, it also sounds like all of Team A had been moving to their positions; seven had stopped in their positions, but four were still moving when the ball was Ďsnapped.í If that (interpreted) understanding is correct, then you have an illegal shift that converts to a false start (7-1-2-b-5).  That is a dead ball foul, that occurs when the ball begins to move for an attempted snap. 
The number of defensive players then becomes moot, because the false start occurred before the ball could be snapped.
Or that is how it should have been, if I read the facts correctly.

Robert
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 09:31:11 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2017, 08:42:41 PM »
Alabama got their play signal from the sideline and was moving into position when the ball was snapped without warning.

The snap was so unexpected the entire stadium, TV crew, officials, everyone caught unaware.

Hurts (QB) chased the ball down and fell on it for a 15-20 yard loss. Bama 12 points down, under 2 minutes left, scrambling for a play on 4th and 9.

People in the stadium saw no flag. Replay stopped play after the chains had been moved. I understand how the crew messed up, yet it's inexcusable.

1. Know where you are. I think the Umpire and both wings got caught up in counting defense. They knew there were 12 on the field, but momentarily forgot everything else. The moment the center puts his hands on the ball, you best be aware of everything. Offensive set, positioning.
The only person responsible for the 12th man is the wing with the player coming at him. Widen your view, 4 offensive players coming in his direction too.
2. The 12th man can be kept in your vision until he crosses the line. You are off the field, nothing happens until the ball is snapped. If the 12th player leaves the corner of your vision he's off the field. He was still three yards in bounds. The focus should be on the ball, with all the other movement taking place.

No flags were dropped. Two wings, Umpire, "C" and White Hat were distracted. Pat Dye Field is one of the loudest floors in the nation, especially when running into the student section of the stadium. You can't hear the person next to you. No hands went up to signal 11 on defense, that broke the concentration.

But it gets worse. There is a flaw in the replay and someone will figure out how to take advantage of it.

Offense not set, defense trying to get 12th man off the field, snap the ball. If no one throws a flag, replay can only decide on the 12th man and ignore the motion because no one flagged it at the snap.  That's a heck of a deal if you can pull it off 3-6 times a season.

Offline carol1995

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 10:18:23 AM »
1. Know where you are. I think the Umpire and both wings got caught up in counting defense. They knew there were 12 on the field, but momentarily forgot everything else. The moment the center puts his hands on the ball, you best be aware of everything. Offensive set, positioning.
The only person responsible for the 12th man is the wing with the player coming at him. Widen your view, 4 offensive players coming in his direction too.
2. The 12th man can be kept in your vision until he crosses the line. You are off the field, nothing happens until the ball is snapped. If the 12th player leaves the corner of your vision he's off the field. He was still three yards in bounds. The focus should be on the ball, with all the other movement taking place.

No flags were dropped. Two wings, Umpire, "C" and White Hat were distracted. Pat Dye Field is one of the loudest floors in the nation, especially when running into the student section of the stadium. You can't hear the person next to you. No hands went up to signal 11 on defense, that broke the concentration.

I didn't see the play so I can't comment on it, but the umpire (and R and C) counts the offense and the wings don't count either team.  The deep 3 count the defense.  If the 12th defensive player is trying to get off the field, he's the responsibility of the deep wing on that side of the field. 

Online TxSkyBolt

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Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 12:10:31 PM »
When did this play happen in the game?


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 08:40:36 PM »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline clearwall

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2017, 11:05:32 AM »
This was just a massive screw up all around and I'm sure those guy are more upset than we are. There was also 5 in the backfield when the ball was snapped. So FS, Ill Form, DOG

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 12:49:37 PM »
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:03:32 PM by Aussie-Zebra »
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 02:53:46 PM »
Could review apply the egregious errors clause here, to at least get offsetting fouls?

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2017, 08:43:31 AM »
Could review apply the egregious errors clause here, to at least get offsetting fouls?

Not a replay expert here, but an egregious error would seem to me to be one that directly involved a score, a down (missed or extra), the clock, or possession of the ball.  Failure to recognize a foul that didn't affect score, down, time or possession would not (IMHO) rise to the level of egregious, with respect to replay getting involved.  Their coordinator may find this to be egregious, which may affect their future assignments.  But I would not think this is something for replay to get involved with.

But I'm not a replay expert.

Robert

Offline Magician

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 09:24:10 AM »
Not a replay expert here, but an egregious error would seem to me to be one that directly involved a score, a down (missed or extra), the clock, or possession of the ball.  Failure to recognize a foul that didn't affect score, down, time or possession would not (IMHO) rise to the level of egregious, with respect to replay getting involved.  Their coordinator may find this to be egregious, which may affect their future assignments.  But I would not think this is something for replay to get involved with.

But I'm not a replay expert.

Robert
I agree. I think a replay official would be putting his neck on the line by calling this an egregious error. What if the defense didn't have 12 players on the field when this happened and it should have been a dead ball false start. That would be a difference between a change of possession at the spot of recovery or a replay of the down. Even then I wonder if replay would get involved. But in this case it would only change a 4th and 4 to a 4th and 14 or a 4th and 9 if just illegal shift. That would be a huge stretch.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 09:40:37 AM »
Even if an error has "game-changing consequences," that is still not by itself a sufficient criterion for judging it "egregious." One obvious example is defensive holding that makes possible a pick-six. For another example, quarterbacks will often try for a "free play" when they catch the defense offside. Often they'll abandon the designed play in favor of a longer but much riskier pass than they would otherwise attempt, without concern for a possible interception. If the defense picks it off, and the officials miss the foul, it changes the whole game. But these are still not reviewable no-calls.

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Illegal substitution on defense.
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 09:35:56 PM »
Not reviewable by replay for the missed FST/Shift/Motion, etc.  It's not a perfect world and replay shouldn't have to bail us out for basic things that are our responsibility on the field.  Been there, done that.
Bill LeMonnier