Author Topic: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)  (Read 1419 times)

Offline wlemonnier

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PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« on: December 09, 2017, 02:34:01 PM »
2Q 00:07... Blocked field goal attempt behind the LOS.  While the ball was loose Team B tackles a Team A player going for the loose ball.  Team B recovers and advances for a TD.  Holding is correctly called on Team B.  TD is negated and following the holding penalty, Team B has to run an untimed down where they take a knee.

Holding foul was a correct call; hold occurred during the loose ball... Team A should have been given an untimed down rather than Team B.  Good play to discuss with your crew as this has a huge potential swing in points in a tight game.  Replay can't bail you out of everything...

Coach of Team B was really upset having the TD negated... If anyone should be upset it should be the Coach of Team A... his team should have had the untimed down and a chip shot for a field goal after the holding penalty.
Bill LeMonnier

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 03:44:12 PM »

Replay can't bail you out of everything...


No, but this would seem to be be an example of an egregious error in which replay CAN get involved.  This is an erroneous award of possession, and it doesn’t get much more egregious than that.
But, you are right.  The on-field guys simply have to get these things right.  Might have been a case of misunderstanding of when the foul occurred.

Robert

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 04:52:26 PM »
I spoke to two replay officials and they agree this is egregious in itself but penalty enforcement does not fall under their jurisdiction, even egregious penalty enforcement... they said they'd O2O it but couldn't intervene officially as replay. 

Again the holding call was correct... no question it was while the ball was loose.

Uploading the video clip now... should be ready in a bit:  https://youtu.be/NuCzjjTsJuQ
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 05:00:27 PM by wlemonnier »
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Offline justaLJ

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 06:49:39 PM »
Tough play, saw it live and was trying my best to send good vibes through the TV for the correct enforcement, then I heard “during the return”, and hoped some O2O input would be forthcoming. 

We’ve all been there at some point....you have a foul, continue to officiate, then comes time to sort it all out, and you get a pit in the belly.  It’s even tougher on a long duration broken play.

Do this long enough, and we’ll all provide free lessons for everyone else.  The lesson here - we’re still officiating a kick play until the ball is possessed, and maintain awareness of when the foul occurred.

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 08:02:25 PM »
... but penalty enforcement does not fall under their jurisdiction, even egregious penalty enforcement...


Bill, if the RO is restricted to those things listed as being in his jurisdiction, then what is the point of have the egregious error rule? 
If they miss the enforcement spot or distance, then the RO should not get involved.  But erroneously awarding the ball to the opponent should qualify as an egregious error that RO should be able to address.  Just my opinion.  I am in no position of authority.

Robert

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 09:24:49 PM »
Bill, if the RO is restricted to those things listed as being in his jurisdiction, then what is the point of have the egregious error rule? 
If they miss the enforcement spot or distance, then the RO should not get involved.  But erroneously awarding the ball to the opponent should qualify as an egregious error that RO should be able to address.  Just my opinion.  I am in no position of authority.

Robert

I don't disagree that awarding the ball to the wrong team is "egregious" based on this being obviously a foul before Team B possession.  But the judgment of the on-field officials was that the foul occurred after the COP, not before.  "What if" the foul is an obviously wrong call (which this wasn't)... should replay also judge the quality of the foul and the enforcement? 

Replay's not perfect... it's a mechanical device which can malfunction or have human error in decisions.  I have mixed feelings on whether this should have been a replay stoppage... assuming replay actually knew the penalty enforcement rule.
Bill LeMonnier

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 10:07:46 PM »
Bill,
Absolutely agree, if the crew judged that the foul occurred after the change of possession, then Replay can’t get involved.  That’s where having him on the O2O system would become valuable, so he could just ask, without having to interrupt play.  If they say ‘during the loose ball,’ then he could suggest they re-think the enforcement.  If they then stick with the erroneous enforcement, he could ‘buzz’ them and make the correction.
Sadly, I can speak from experience that, had someone - RO, chain crew, ball boy - suggested that we reconsider the penalty enforcement, I don’t think I’d have made a very nearly identical error.  But, it was our error, with nobody else to blame.  (This was prior to the advent of O2O systems.)

Robert

Robert

Robert

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 08:35:20 AM »
If replay can review catch/no catch, why is it any different to review "during the loose ball/after recovery"?

This play happened at the end of the first half.  What if it were at the end of the game, and made the difference in the outcome?  What if this were in the CFP championship game?

If I were one of the on-field officials, I'd dang sure want replay to get involved & help us get this one right.

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 08:44:46 AM »
If replay can review catch/no catch, why is it any different to review "during the loose ball/after recovery"?

This play happened at the end of the first half.  What if it were at the end of the game, and made the difference in the outcome?  What if this were in the CFP championship game?

If I were one of the on-field officials, I'd dang sure want replay to get involved & help us get this one right.

Look at the controversy we have on catch/no-catch even with replay involved... NFL, NCAA.  We have some replay officials who never officiated a down of football in the booth... we can't get it right on the field and now we put it it their hands. Replay is becoming an alibi for us not taking ownership and raising the bar for ourselves.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline Kalle

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 10:18:57 AM »
We have some replay officials who never officiated a down of football in the booth...

Now this I cannot understand about the NCAA (or NFL) replay system. Why not use eg. experienced HS officials? I would think there are lots of good HS officials who would jump at the chance.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 12:41:09 PM »
Now this I cannot understand about the NCAA (or NFL) replay system. Why not use eg. experienced HS officials? I would think there are lots of good HS officials who would jump at the chance.

I especially don't understand this in NCAA where the RO is the only one looking at the actual replay. The R is just on a headset being told what replay shows, not looking at it themselves. NFL white hats at least get the altar boys with the iPads...

Offline BrendanP

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2017, 11:36:35 PM »
Now this I cannot understand about the NCAA (or NFL) replay system. Why not use eg. experienced HS officials? I would think there are lots of good HS officials who would jump at the chance.

I very much endorse your idea for some very selfish reasons ;)

Offline bossman72

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 08:08:35 AM »
The crew got the rule right, just that their judgment of when the foul occurred was wrong.  Hard for replay to correct this if they don't hear the conversation over the O2O prior to the R making his announcement.

Offline ConnRef01

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2017, 05:53:33 PM »
Would there also potentially be an illegal forward bat of a loose ball by #22 of Weber State before recovering the blocked kick?  This second foul would also have favored JMU with a potential untimed down.

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 06:45:27 PM »
When I first saw the replay view, I thought the receiving team player was just attempting to secure the ball and just muffed the attempt.  But, looking at the replay after that, it does, indeed, appear that he conciously and deliberately pushes the ball ahead of him, so he gets a better shot at recovering it.  But, there’s the problem. It took two looks at the play from a well positioned and zoomed camera for me to draw that conclusion.  Not even the best on-field guys would have been able to retreat fast enough to get that good of a look at it to make that call.
But, yes, it would have been a previous spot enforcement, and extend the period for an untimed down for Team A.

Robert

Offline Kalle

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2017, 03:28:11 AM »
When I first saw the replay view, I thought the receiving team player was just attempting to secure the ball and just muffed the attempt.  But, looking at the replay after that, it does, indeed, appear that he conciously and deliberately pushes the ball ahead of him, so he gets a better shot at recovering it.  But, there’s the problem. It took two looks at the play from a well positioned and zoomed camera for me to draw that conclusion.  Not even the best on-field guys would have been able to retreat fast enough to get that good of a look at it to make that call.

This is an excellent argument against replay attempting to fix everything. Replay is a great tool to fix obvious mistakes (which do happen in every game), but there are limits, and I think the current limits in NCAA as to what replay can get involved with are pretty good.

I still think that the RO should be considered a full member of the crew and be able to give his input on other plays (especially enforcement and other rules issues), though.

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2017, 04:00:36 PM »
This is an excellent argument against replay attempting to fix everything. Replay is a great tool to fix obvious mistakes (which do happen in every game), but there are limits, and I think the current limits in NCAA as to what replay can get involved with are pretty good.

I still think that the RO should be considered a full member of the crew and be able to give his input on other plays (especially enforcement and other rules issues), though.



Provided the RO does have on field experience. Some don't
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Offline Dakota Dan

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2017, 06:19:06 PM »
How is this any different to the play in Bedlam (Oklahoma at Oklahoma State)? 

In  bedlam 2:00 4q (OU55 OSU 53), OSU threw a pass and it bounced off the WR and while the ball is in the air an OU player “targets” the WR, then the ball is intercepted by a different OU player.  The ruling on the field was that the TGT was after the change of possession and therefore it was OU ball after the enforcement.  Replay “cleared” the TGT and then made the decision that this would have been a clear and obvious and rise to the level of egregious error if we do not correct the enforcement of the TGT enforcement action.  Replay changed it so that OSU retained the ball.  The crew of 8 field and 2 replay officials got together and made it right and thus preventing any potential controversies  for the conference.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 06:44:50 PM by Dakota Dan »

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT... UNTIMED DOWN (Weber St vs James Madison)
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2017, 09:40:12 PM »
We have some replay officials who never officiated a down of football in the booth...

This is true but I’m not sure how relevant it is to the discussion. I’ve had replay officials who never worked on the field who were excellent. I’ve also had guys who had lengthy onfield careers who just couldn’t make the adjustment to the booth.