Author Topic: NEVER EVER....  (Read 1923 times)

Offline ElvisLives

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NEVER EVER....
« on: December 17, 2017, 10:28:37 PM »
...use a game card or anything else when measuring for a first down.  Rule one way or the other, but do it with conviction at the moment, and move on.

Unbelievable.

Robert

Offline TxSkyBolt

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NEVER EVER....
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 06:34:32 AM »
Spill


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 08:12:19 AM »
Spill
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By "spill," I infer that you mean "spill the beans," i.e., offer explanation regarding the initial post.  If you don't know, then you didn't see the Cowboys @ Raiders game last night.  At a critical point in the game, the R seriously used his game card to slide between the ball and the forward stake during a measurement, then ruled first down.
Sure, bend down and take a close look in those situations.  But, make a decision. If you can see daylight between the ball and stake, next down.  If you can't see daylight, first down.

But leave the game card, credit card, Christmas card - whatever - in your pocket.

Robert

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 09:24:07 AM »
It was certainly high drama! Gene should do a better job hiding his smile next time.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 09:41:12 AM »
It was certainly high drama! Gene should do a better job hiding his smile next time.

"Selling a Call" is a skill EVERY official at EVERY level, needs to work on and perfect.  Which prop, if any, chosen to "advance the sale" depends on the venue, the situation and the circumstance, and as with so many things we deal with, "One size will NEVER fit all".

Next time, anyone of us finds ourselves in a similar position, in a Sunday night, Cowboy-Raider game, we can make whatever decision we choose whether to use "a prop", or not, to emphasize our decision.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 09:42:57 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Archie

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
I remember this game card thing being used in at least one NFL measurement years ago.  Dumb then, dumb now. I made it through another entire season without any measurements...maybe we can figure out a better way, with non-card technology, to figure out the 10 yards.  One idea is to have a rule that first downs (outside of the goal to go situations) all get rounded up or back to start on a line.  That way, the spot for the line to gain would never be in question.

Offline prosec34

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 12:42:41 PM »
It looked to me that the tip of the ball was kissing the white line, so if it's me, I'm signaling first down and moving the chains without a measurement.

But yeah, if you're measuring, give it a good look and if there's no discernable space between the ball and stick, give them the first down and go on. You're the only one with the perspective to know.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 01:56:57 PM »
A good H would make sure it was a first down.

Offline Etref

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 03:38:45 PM »
 yEs:
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 05:05:23 PM »
Regardless of whether you should or not, here's a perspective to think about; does anybody question today whether it was a first down or not?  There's no debate about whether it was or wasn't.

With all the play, replay, ad nauseum blah, blah, blah....nobody today questions whether that was a first down....it was proven....and in a game that is ultimately about entertainment...it was entertaining.
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Offline JasonTX

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2017, 05:29:05 PM »
I agree, do not use the game card.  In critical situations I have gotten a captain of each team to witness the measurement.  I once rolled the ball to the stake and both captains see this and agree with the outcome.  Prior to the roll one thought it was short and the other thought it was a first.  I wanted them both to be in agreement.  Other than that, meausure and then get the chains out of there. 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2017, 06:51:44 PM »
It looked to me that the tip of the ball was kissing the white line, so if it's me, I'm signaling first down and moving the chains without a measurement.

But yeah, if you're measuring, give it a good look and if there's no discernable space between the ball and stick, give them the first down and go on. You're the only one with the perspective to know.

You may be ignoring, hopefully not missing, a very significant circumstance.  Sometimes what we do, especially if we routinely do it extremely well, can be misunderstood as being cavalier and we need to be careful it doesn't appear "ho-hum". 

Jim Tunney relates when talking to John Madden after Oakland's Super Bowl, asking why he received a commemorative watch, and Madden got a ring, Tunney described as "with a diamond the size of an ashtray"  Madden responded, " because he (Tunney) didn't care who won". 

Not exactly accurate, but basically true and sometimes how that real close measurement turns out means a lot more to others than it does to the referee measuring, so you may want to treat it with the concern and importance others perceive, and attach to it, rather than what you know, "is what it is."

Being right, and others believing and accepting you're right, can be very different things, worth a little extra effort. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 06:54:59 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2017, 10:39:03 PM »
Wow!!!

One guy says he never measures and you should always round up or down to a yard line, another says a good H will just make up a spot to give a team a first down and another says donít use a card just roll the ball to the stake.

OMG WTF is going on here 🤦‍♂️  :puke:

Offline TxBJ

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NEVER EVER....
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 06:07:20 AM »
Regardless of whether you should or not, here's a perspective to think about; does anybody question today whether it was a first down or not?  There's no debate about whether it was or wasn't.

With all the play, replay, ad nauseum blah, blah, blah....nobody today questions whether that was a first down....it was proven....and in a game that is ultimately about entertainment...it was entertaining.
Yes, there are people claiming it was not a first down. And claiming the “folded” index card made it a first down, being twice as thick. I didn’t see it so I’m not agreeing with them, but I have heard and read people claiming it was short. Maybe they were wearing their Raider glasses at the time!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 08:25:23 AM »
Why look for a problem?  If you're ABSOLUTELY sure, either it is, or is not a 1st down - declare what you see and move on, and it doesn't matter what ANYONE else thinks or wants you to do.  If you're not ABSOLUTELY sure, take a look - bring out the chains and become SURE.

Once YOU'RE sure, it just doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It's really not rocket science, either it is, or it isn't, a 1st down, and there's no GOOD reason to leave a legitimate doubt in anyone's mind.

Offline clearwall

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 10:28:08 AM »
I just dont think Gene did himself any favors doing this. I get why he did it...he's looking to visually eliminate any doubt and have a little flair doing it but I think he really set himself up for failure. If he had just pointed one way or the other, he may have gotten criticized by the team that lost the call, but it would be no different than a thousand other measurements that are millimeters or inches one way or the other. Doing this with the prop, he's now inviting criticism over the prop itself, how the prop was utilized, and all this other mess that is completely unnecessary to the discussion. The NFL is always going to measure where most of us working non-NFL games would just use the "start on a line-end on a line" philosophy, but I think it still has some merit even at that level.
I hear lots of discussion about the NFL placing chips in balls and stakes and all of that for laser precision measuring but if you do that, then you have to make sure the DJ has every single stick EXACTLY aligned on every new series. That is not done today. Most of the chain crews aren't even comprised of actual football officials. So you're going to tell me that some guy who is a buddy of the owner is going to be responsible for half millimeter measurements?
I think the crew all knew as soon as the ball was spotted whether it was a 1st or not. Bringing the chains out was only done to eliminate any doubt for the viewers and teams. Steratore put the doubt back in using the card and it was unnecessary

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 11:32:09 AM »
Although we definitely have more fans asking petty and stupid questions, the real problem seems to be how much attention everyone else is paying to those stupid and petty questions.

Offline TXMike

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2017, 06:11:16 PM »
It was a mistake most any new official would not even make.   .  Confirmed by NFL now instructing their guys NEVER to do again.

Offline LAZebra

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2017, 02:24:41 PM »
Stand upright while the chain is stretched. Look down at the intersection of the ball with the front stake. If you see daylight, not a first down, no daylight, first down.  Not really very complicated, in my opinion.
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Offline hefnerjm

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Re: NEVER EVER....
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2018, 01:28:45 PM »
...use a game card or anything else when measuring for a first down.  Rule one way or the other, but do it with conviction at the moment, and move on.

Unbelievable.

Robert

I just dont think Gene did himself any favors doing this

Whelp...I think the only favor he did himself was that he is working the Super Bowl this year.  Well played Gene...Well played.
Coach: "I've been doing this 30 years!  I know the rules!"
Ref: "Are you married coach?"
Coach (suddenly offguard): "umm...yeah, why?"
Ref: "I've been married 30 years and my wife says there is still room for improvement"
Coach: "<silence>"