Author Topic: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games  (Read 2918 times)

Offline Chiefump

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Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« on: December 24, 2017, 12:27:06 PM »
This is an open question for any officials that worked any of the games or anyone else that may have direct knowledge of the issue. Did the UIL directly tell the crews to ignore the rules regarding equipment, i.e., no knee pads, bandanas under helmets, mouthpieces, towels, illegal jerseys?  If this is the case or if it was just a decision by the crews to ignore the violations it makes it very difficult on the crews that made the effort to enforce the rules during the season and sets a bad example for the crews trying to do the right thing next season.  I have seen the comments that we should have bigger things to worry about in the game but it's ignoring the little things that will eventually turn in to big things. The rules are there for a reason.

Offline Clear Lake ref

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 12:55:44 PM »
Once you fix the little things, the big things become less of a problem. It's how Giuliani cleaned up New York.

Offline Clear Lake ref

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2017, 12:59:35 PM »
Should add:

Fix,but don't fixate.

Offline TXPanhandle

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 04:00:09 PM »
This is an open question for any officials that worked any of the games or anyone else that may have direct knowledge of the issue. Did the UIL directly tell the crews to ignore the rules regarding equipment, i.e., no knee pads, bandanas under helmets, mouthpieces, towels, illegal jerseys?  If this is the case or if it was just a decision by the crews to ignore the violations it makes it very difficult on the crews that made the effort to enforce the rules during the season and sets a bad example for the crews trying to do the right thing next season.  I have seen the comments that we should have bigger things to worry about in the game but it's ignoring the little things that will eventually turn in to big things. The rules are there for a reason.

Thank you for this post and questions. Questions I hope get answered honestly. Going into next season knowing the knee pad actually covering the knee comes into play I cannot help but now wonder if we are going to ignore that rule too like all the others mentioned were ignored. And Iím talking about the safety rules like missing mouth pieces, back pads not covered, etc.

At this point Iím certainly going into next season planning on not giving a hoot about knee pads since itís allowed on the biggest stage in Texas.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2017, 03:13:27 PM »
Personally, I think when we see knee pad issues in games next year, if weíve done our due deligence in telling the head coaches these issues have to be cleaned up, we start calling time outs on the teams not in proper uniform.  If we all did this, the issues woul get cleaned up very quickly.

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 04:55:59 PM »
I haven't worked a state champ. game but I've been on site multiple full days over the past few years -- in the press box, on the field, in the locker/hallway, etc. I've talked to the crews, a few chapter officers, TASO brass, UIL brass, etc. Not once have I heard any comment about any issue the OP raises. Maybe they didn't exist in the years I was there (hard to believe) but I am pretty sure that none of the UIL administrators on site are even remotely interested in these issues. They want the event to run well and on time. They want what the people see on TV to look professional. Beyond that...

Now, in fairness, they'd come back and say at least 2 things: first, they want the officials to handle such issues and second, the UIL people there aren't necessarily the ones that put the rules discussed in place. 

Offline Cowtown Ref

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2018, 11:17:16 AM »
One pertaining issue to enforcement of these kind of violations is UIL wanting us to only come out 30 mins  before KO.  It has been reinforced in our chapter that we don't have jurisdiction before the 30min mark, so stay in locker room.

But that's when you can take care of these little things.  Trying to handle at KO or during the game, is nonsense.

So, my point is that we need to be going out 1 hour before KO and handling these issues. 

Just my 2 cents

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2018, 10:22:47 PM »
One pertaining issue to enforcement of these kind of violations is UIL wanting us to only come out 30 mins  before KO.  It has been reinforced in our chapter that we don't have jurisdiction before the 30min mark, so stay in locker room.

But that's when you can take care of these little things.  Trying to handle at KO or during the game, is nonsense.

So, my point is that we need to be going out 1 hour before KO and handling these issues. 

Just my 2 cents

We are out on the field anytime there are two opposing teams out there.  We understand we don't have jurisdiction until 30 mins but we can still handle issues that could be an issue.  I attended a playoff game in which a different chapter was assigned and he crew NEVER came out until it was time for the coin toss.  They literally walked onto the field 7 mins. before kickoff

Offline psv

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2018, 01:31:30 AM »
We are out on the field anytime there are two opposing teams out there.  We understand we don't have jurisdiction until 30 mins but we can still handle issues that could be an issue.  I attended a playoff game in which a different chapter was assigned and he crew NEVER came out until it was time for the coin toss.  They literally walked onto the field 7 mins. before kickoff

Once our jurisdiction starts, and there are no teams on the field, why go out?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 07:46:04 AM »
When do you check the field?
Make sure there are no unsafe conditions within the limit lines, and, if there are, get management to make necessary corrections.  Be sure the pylons are there and positioned correctly.  Make sure yard line markers and/or advertising elements are outside the limit lines.   Check the locations of the play clocks.  Instruct the clock operators, if not already done.  Check and mark game balls, if not already done.  Instruct chain crew and ball persons, if not already done.  Check field mic.  Etc. Etc. Etc.

I dare say that canít be done in 7 minutes.

That stuff can be done anytime, but, at the HS level, chain crew personnel, ball persons, clock operators, etc., are quite often not available more than 30 minutes before K/O.  Arriving at the game site 90 minutes before K/O leaves only so much time to dress, confer with the head coaches, have some sort of pre-game conference, perform the pre-game checks, AND be on the field any time both teams are on the field beginning at 30 minutes before K/O.

Yes, arriving earlier might help, but those COs, chain crew, etc., still ainít gonna be there, so that doesnít help much.  And, this is neither a primary job, nor an activity that compensates officials enough to get to the game sites much more than 90 minutes before K/O.  More power to anyone that can, and will, but, at a lot of sites, that really wonít help much.

Yes, both teams are not usually on the field very long between T minus 30 and K/O, but, if they are, we need to be there.  Thatís our best opportunity to do those pre-game checks.  Once we get those done, if one or both teams have left the field, sure we can, too.

Robert


Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 12:55:22 PM »
The pre-game thing is an issue that I have tried to get TASO to do something about and they keep ignoring it. I talked with Cooper Castleberry at a regional clinic last year about this exact issue: if we're on the field (and we are on there at least an hour before KO), what happens if there are issues that take place between then and 30 minutes prior to game time? I don't think UIL would have a problem with expanding our jurisdiction like the book says (i.e. no exception) but they just haven't been made aware of this being a potential problem. It is up to TASO -- you know, the guys that supposedly KNOW the rules and what changes might help -- to make UIL aware of these things and as far as I know, they haven't.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 07:58:34 PM »
Once our jurisdiction starts, and there are no teams on the field, why go out?

I'm just saying the crew working a 4th round playoff game never came out.  I was on site 2 hours before the game and they never walked the field or did anything.  Other than pregame with the coaches outside the field-house they never came onto the field.  At 30 mins till kickoff both teams WERE on the field but no official anywhere.  At 20 mins the teams left the field.  At 7 mins till the crew makes their way to the field.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 08:48:22 AM »
The pre-game thing is an issue that I have tried to get TASO to do something about and they keep ignoring it. I talked with Cooper Castleberry at a regional clinic last year about this exact issue: if we're on the field (and we are on there at least an hour before KO), what happens if there are issues that take place between then and 30 minutes prior to game time? I don't think UIL would have a problem with expanding our jurisdiction like the book says (i.e. no exception) but they just haven't been made aware of this being a potential problem. It is up to TASO -- you know, the guys that supposedly KNOW the rules and what changes might help -- to make UIL aware of these things and as far as I know, they haven't.
why are you on the field that early ?  Just because there has not been a change made does not mean you are not being heard.  Perhaps the majority of those charged with making changes do not agree with you .  We can all give anecdotal evidence and proof of why one way is better than another .  But when we have very limited time on site prior to the game, wouldnít we better served using as much of that time as possible doing pregame mechanics,rules and situation reviews?
I have tried for years to have the auto DQ of targeting penalties removed.  I know UIL and TASO have received the recommendation.   I also know that so far my opinion is in the minority so has not been adopted. Thatís life .
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:52:18 AM by TXMike »

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 08:53:46 AM »
My U and I go out about an hour before kick, sometimes a bit earlier.  Some chapters go with the entire crew, which I refuse to do as there is no need for it.  At 35 minutes before kickoff, the H, L and B go out, check balls, talk to chain crew, check field, keep an eye on teams.  Teams are usually off by about 20 before kick, so we go back in for a last minute wizz and then head back out.  Seems to work for us for the last 7 seasons on this crew.  And with a good radio system, you can communicate from the field to the dressing room to coordinate things. 

One thing we are sticklers on is footballs.  It is incredible how many times we check balls and they are grossly underinflated.  We always get them up to par, but sometimes we think they let some air out.  We mark balls and never let a "kicking ball" or unapproved ball into the game.  All of this administrative stuff needs to be done before the game. 

The discussion with coaches should be as quick as possible but it must cover all of the important points.  I have a check list for each team that I go down in discussions with each coach, and always talk to home team coach first to check for special circumstances, homecoming, whatever.  We've had several situations where we asked the band to move back their mobile conductor stands and caught HECK about it, but we won't start the game without that type of thing being fixed.  Take care of all of that before the game, and I think it sets the tone for the entire game.  It shows you mean business, are concerned about player safety, and will follow the rules.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 03:33:01 PM »
Started a new "pre-game" discussion.  Take a look.

Robert

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2018, 06:19:17 PM »
Quote
why are you on the field that early ?

Several reasons:

1. Talk to the coaches. Teams leave the field almost universally at 7:00 (assuming 7:30 kick) -- you can set your watch by it. We can't wait until our official jurisdiction begins to talk to the coaches at that time. They're preparing for the game.

2. Because teams are almost always off the field around 7, going out at that time is pointless. We want a strong presence at the 50 yard line AND be able to pick up a sense of how a team plays -- offense and special teams (kicker leg, how far he can kick, running or spread formations, etc.).

3. Our chapter has told us to be out there and most crews have been going out at an hour for decades. The few times we've been late, it seems to have bothered the coaches a little.

To me the simple answer is to amend the UIL exception to something like, "the officials' jurisdiction begins when they take the field, which may be up to an hour prior to kickoff." Or, 30 minutes before KO, whichever is earlier. I've never had a pregame incident myself, but we have had crews that have had minor ones. Not going out until 30 minutes prior to KO is simply out of the question. We can't always be at the stadium early enough to talk to the coaches before they take the field and, as stated, after they've left the field, the horse is gone.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2018, 06:05:46 PM »
This is something TASO should consider updating in the mechanics.  As currently written it is expected that the R & U visit locker rooms before the players are on the field and included in that visit is to make certain teams are equipped according to rule etc.  However they may not all be dressed by then.  While the Mechanics do call for at least 1 official to be on the field when players from both teams are out there, technically the mechanics say to arrive as a "unit" no later than 15 minutes before game time even though our jurisdiction starts 30 minutes before game time.  I think it would be good for TASO to revisit these mechanics in light of what really happens in my humble opinion.  Which won't be until 2019 given the mechanics review cycle is now on a 2-year cycle.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2018, 09:35:03 AM »
This is something TASO should consider updating in the mechanics.  As currently written it is expected that the R & U visit locker rooms before the players are on the field and included in that visit is to make certain teams are equipped according to rule etc.  However they may not all be dressed by then.  While the Mechanics do call for at least 1 official to be on the field when players from both teams are out there, technically the mechanics say to arrive as a "unit" no later than 15 minutes before game time even though our jurisdiction starts 30 minutes before game time.  I think it would be good for TASO to revisit these mechanics in light of what really happens in my humble opinion.  Which won't be until 2019 given the mechanics review cycle is now on a 2-year cycle.

We very rarely visit coaches in the dressing room.  That's just not very practical in many cases.  Get with them on the field no later than 1 hour before kickoff.  They almost always are on the field at that time.  And, always start the conversation with "coach, is this a good time to talk, I need about 5 minutes or less."  He may have things he needs to take care of at that immediate time and it let's him make that decision.  Always talk to the home team coach first to get any word on special events that might be taking place, homecoming etc.  The rest of the crew should come out on the field no later than 30 minutes before kickoff.  We don't have jurisdiction before then, so not really any reason to have anyone out there before that.  When teams go in, usually about 15 minutes before kickoff, the crew can head back in for that last minute nervous wizz. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2018, 03:43:37 PM »
We very rarely visit coaches in the dressing room.  That's just not very practical in many cases.  Get with them on the field no later than 1 hour before kickoff.  They almost always are on the field at that time.  And, always start the conversation with "coach, is this a good time to talk, I need about 5 minutes or less."  He may have things he needs to take care of at that immediate time and it let's him make that decision.  Always talk to the home team coach first to get any word on special events that might be taking place, homecoming etc.  The rest of the crew should come out on the field no later than 30 minutes before kickoff.  We don't have jurisdiction before then, so not really any reason to have anyone out there before that.  When teams go in, usually about 15 minutes before kickoff, the crew can head back in for that last minute nervous wizz.

Doc,
We may not be exactly on the same paragraph, but we are generally on the same page.

So much of this pre-game timing and logistics goes right back to the arrival time of the crew to the game site.  Arriving at the stadium 2 to 3 hours prior to the KO, as in FBS football, leaves plenty of time to conduct a brief at-stadium pre-game crew conference before the R and U need to meet with the head coaches at 1:30 (home HC, then about 1:25 for visiting HC) prior to KO.  (As a foreshadowing comment, in FBS, they know we are coming and are prepared for us at T-90.)  But, for UIL football, our crews generally are not able to break away from their 'real jobs' to arrive at a game site more than 90 minutes prior to KO.  And, honestly, for the compensation received, they shouldn't be expected to arrive any earlier.  Not complaining about the compensation, just offering an honest evaluation of the business component of this avocation.
Arriving 90 minutes prior to KO leaves 15 minutes for the R and U to get dressed and be with the home HC at T-75, as is prescribed by our manual.  Plenty of time to get situated in the dressing room and get dressed, but not much of anything else.

Here is where we may diverge a bit.  The UIL Exceptions specify that the "Officials Mechanics approved by the TASO or UIL Football Board of Directors shall be used."  So, the coaches should then EXPECT to visit with us at T-75.  So, asking them about the convenience of our visit should not be of concern to us.  They should know we are coming and schedule their pre-games to accommodate our visit at T-75 for the home HC, and about T-70 for the visiting HC.  Just as we need to respect their time, they need to respect ours.

The R & U can usually get back to the dressing room by T-60, leaving 30 minutes to confer briefly with the clock operators, then conduct a brief, but meaningful, crew conference.  Being on the field with BOTH teams on the field prior to T-30 only exposes us to liability.  If we do, and something were to happen during that time, and we get named in a lawsuit, our insurance carrier would probably decline to honor a claim or defend us, on the basis that we failed to follow our own written procedures.
So, if we arrive on the field at T-30, regardless if teams are present, we can/should check the field, approve game balls (if not already done, somehow) and confer with ball persons, confer with the chain crew, test the field mic, etc.  In my experience, one, or both, teams retire to their dressing rooms between T-25 and T-20.  So, we are often out there completing our duties without teams.  Yeah, it would be nice to have a few more minutes with teams on the field, to take some snaps, and get 'into' the game, but, it just doesn't work out, some times.  Then, like you, we retire to our dressing room for last minute "personal needs" and inspirational words from one or all!  Then head back out in time to gather captains and execute the coin toss precisely at T-3:00, and KO, ON TIME!!!!! :)

As we have discussed before, IMHO, this is the one area that could go a long way toward at least offering the perception of consistency.  If we all executed the pre-game process exactly the same, they might have a hard time distinguishing one crew from another.  And that would be a good thing.

Robert

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2018, 10:12:11 PM »
Robert, from what iíve experience, different regions of the state have differing procedures for what goes on before the games.  In San Antonio for instance, 99% of the time the toss is at -15 before kickoff.  It has been done that way for many, many years and its what the coaches expect.  I think you put too much on the coaches to know things, because I donít know of one single coach iíve worked a game for that would know any mechanics concerning when officials will meet with them and when they should be available, nor do they care.  All they know is that those officials will come to speak with them before the game some time.  Also, even though the mechanics say only the R and U go talk to the coaches, almost all crews in SA go talk to the coaches as an entire crew, even if it is 7.  I never fell in line with this because I just want me and the U, not all of us.  Again, this gets back to inconsistency across the state.  I remember years ago I changed chapters.  The chapter I was I finally put an end to allow ball boys on the field and the one I changed to still allowed them on the field.  We just arenít all on the same page, regardless of what the mechanics manual might say. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 08:58:38 AM »
We just arenít all on the same page, regardless of what the mechanics manual might say.

And therein lies the problem.  I'm sure I'm preaching to a fellow choir member, but why have a manual if we don't follow it?

As for the coaches not knowing prescribed pre-game procedures, etc., that is partially a failure on our part to educate them.  One thing we need to be allowed to do is send a generic 'form' e-mail to the Athletic Directors or Head Coaches of both teams during the week prior to a game to
1) confirm the scheduled KO date and time
2) list the crew
3) state our expected arrival time to the stadium
4) remind them of the time when we expect to confer with the HCs
5) remind the home team to have the Game Administrator identify him/herself to us sometime prior to the coin toss
6) remind the home team of the time the clock operators are to report to our dressing room for a brief conference

Nothing more, nothing less.  This lays out the expectations for us and for them.

Perhaps that message could be a 'form' that resides in Arbiter, with fields that are simply populated with the appropriate information, and sent through Arbiter.  If there is a problem (e.g., wrong scheduled date/time), the AD/HC can then contact the chapter assignor and make the correction.

Consistency is the goal.

Robert
 

Offline Etref

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Re: Uniform related issues in State Championship Games
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 06:54:31 PM »
And therein lies the problem.  I'm sure I'm preaching to a fellow choir member, but why have a manual if we don't follow it?

As for the coaches not knowing prescribed pre-game procedures, etc., that is partially a failure on our part to educate them.  One thing we need to be allowed to do is send a generic 'form' e-mail to the Athletic Directors or Head Coaches of both teams during the week prior to a game to
1) confirm the scheduled KO date and time
2) list the crew
3) state our expected arrival time to the stadium
4) remind them of the time when we expect to confer with the HCs
5) remind the home team to have the Game Administrator identify him/herself to us sometime prior to the coin toss
6) remind the home team of the time the clock operators are to report to our dressing room for a brief conference

Nothing more, nothing less.  This lays out the expectations for us and for them.

Perhaps that message could be a 'form' that resides in Arbiter, with fields that are simply populated with the appropriate information, and sent through Arbiter.  If there is a problem (e.g., wrong scheduled date/time), the AD/HC can then contact the chapter assignor and make the correction.

Consistency is the goal.

Robert
 

It is hard to be consistent Statewide, when most times we can't be consistent inside the chapter.
" I don't make the rules coach!"