Author Topic: FG rules quirk  (Read 1132 times)

Offline Clear Lake ref

  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
FG rules quirk
« on: December 25, 2017, 12:21:52 AM »
Theoretically, if a holder gets taken out while still holding the ball on the ground for a kick, does the play end?  Nothing really seems to address if the holder can be downed per se.

Offline Kalle

  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-32
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2017, 03:41:45 AM »
I don't think "held for a place kick by a teammate" applies after the holder is tackled, provided the ball is not fumbled.

Offline mccormicw

  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-3
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2017, 06:23:26 PM »
I love this topic.  If I am a defender rushing to block the kick and the ball is still in the holders's hand.  What do I do?  Do I tap him on the shoulder and he is down?  Do I tackle him?  Do I stand in front of the ball until....?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 07:12:53 PM by mccormicw »

Offline Clear Lake ref

  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2017, 07:06:05 PM »
Exactly.

And yes this happened to me in a game. Fortunately kick was missed and it was a try so just signaled no good and told coach of kicking team contact with holder was prekick so no foul.

Offline Kalle

  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-32
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 04:48:24 AM »
I love this topic.  If I am a defender rushing to block the kick and the ball is still in the holders's hand.  What do I do?  Do I tap him on the shoulder and he is down?  Do I tackle him?  Do I stand in front of the ball until....?

We don't have a down by contact concept so the tapping on the shoulder doesn't change the situation (the ball is still being held for a place kick). You need to actually tackle the holder or swipe the ball away, which is probably the better option if you are not blocked.

Offline Clear Lake ref

  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2017, 07:30:18 AM »
We don't have a down by contact concept so the tapping on the shoulder doesn't change the situation (the ball is still being held for a place kick). You need to actually tackle the holder or swipe the ball away, which is probably the better option if you are not blocked.

So since the hold itself is an exception, should there be an exception created to down the player?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 447
  • FAN REACTION: +46/-42
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 07:47:50 AM »
So since the hold itself is an exception, should there be an exception created to down the player?

You are asking for opinions with that question, so I will offer that the current rule has worked quite well for a number of decades, so I, personally, see no need to change it. 

If a player is legally holding for a place kick, and a defender can get to him in time to do so, the defender may certainly "tackle" that player.  In reality, if a B player does manage to get to the potential holder before the kick, the B player is likely to cause a fumble, or cause the potential holder to abandon the kick attempt and at least try to get up and run (which he is permitted to do), or pass the ball (either direction, again, which he is permitted to do).

But, like Kalle said, a simple "touch" on the potential holder won't - and shouldn't (IMHO) - cause the ball to become dead.  No need for a rule change.

Robert

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • FAN REACTION: +59/-22
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 08:36:48 AM »
Right, but on a tackle, when does he officially become down?

I would say when a new body part hits the ground that wasn't down while he was holding the ball.

Offline mccormicw

  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-3
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 08:43:53 AM »
The issue is that I have seen players flagged for UNR for tackling the holder.  The problem is there really no way to tackle a guy on his knees without it looking bad.  If there is going to be an exception to the normal rules of when a player is down, the rule should explain how to end the play during the exception period.  Tapping the guy on the shoulder is as good a way to guess what makes the player down as tackling a downed player.  If you are going to have an exception, you have to explain what makes the excepted player down.  Otherwise, we are all guessing.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 447
  • FAN REACTION: +46/-42
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 10:10:40 AM »
The issue is that I have seen players flagged for UNR for tackling the holder.  The problem is there really no way to tackle a guy on his knees without it looking bad.  If there is going to be an exception to the normal rules of when a player is down, the rule should explain how to end the play during the exception period.  Tapping the guy on the shoulder is as good a way to guess what makes the player down as tackling a downed player.  If you are going to have an exception, you have to explain what makes the excepted player down.  Otherwise, we are all guessing.

The exception allows the ball to remain alive while he is holding/controlling the ball for a potential kick.  As long as he is still holding/controlling the ball, and a potential kicker is in position to make a kick, the ball remains alive, even if an opponent manages to get to him in time to contact him before the ball is kicked.

Let's assume an opponent gets to him in time to contact him before the kick.  What is likely to happen?
a) He'll maintain his hold/control of the ball and the kicker kicks it.  This is just football.  Play on.

b) He'll maintain his hold on the ball, but move it from its position on the ground, meaning he is no longer holding/controlling the ball for a potential kick, and he is now a ball carrier.  As long as he WAS legally holding/controlling the ball for a potential kick, he may rise and attempt to advance the ball, or throw it.  The ball is still alive.  If an opponent tackles him such that his forward progress is stopped, then the ball is dead.  As Bossman said, most likely some other body part will touch the ground, and that would qualify to make the ball dead.  Or, he'll rise from the ground (ball still alive), then get blocked back to the ground - ball dead.

c) He'll lose his hold/control of the ball and the ball will be loose from a fumble.  Still alive, but, loose.

This isn't touch football.  Just touching a legal potential holder won't cause the ball to become dead.  Yes, the potential holder is at risk of getting a vicious hit.  Targeting and personal foul rules still apply.  But a good, hard tackle/block to the body with an opponent's shoulder/body is just football.  If that happens after the ball is legally kicked, then it becomes running into/roughing.

The rule is good as it is.

Robert



Offline mccormicw

  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-3
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 04:15:49 PM »
The rule is good as it is.
   :bOW Not a fan of phrases such as this.  This seems to imply that all of us that could not come up with a solution are just inadequate and your word is final because ..... Before you came along and laid out the only scenarios you see as possible, several people read the rule and were confused.  Pretty sure there are thousands of officials out there who do not have the benefit of your wisdom and may misapply this rule if a defensive player at full speed does not lead with his helmet and does not contact the holder above the shoulders but nonetheless clobbers a player on the ground.  It will look very much like unnecessary roughness and may be flagged as such.  My point is, you said it in words, why would it hurt for the rules to say it in words.  It would be simple to add something like "although the holder would be legally down in other situations, due to the exception, he may be contacted forcibly as long as the player is not targeted as in 9-1-3 or 9-1-4.  There is always an option for an AR instead.  Last but not least, every time we have a debate about a rule, there are people that think the rule is clear already.  Should we stop the debate because a knowledgeable person lays down the final "The rule is good as it is" statement.  I say leave that statement out of it.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2840
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: FG rules quirk
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 07:08:47 AM »
   :bOW Not a fan of phrases such as this.  This seems to imply that all of us that could not come up with a solution  .......
I will agree with Elvis here.  Simply stating that the rule is inadequate adds nothing to the discussion.  The rule has been in place for many years and has been basically unchanged.  If there are some usable suggestions on how the rule could be improved and made more specific then let's hear it.  Lots of discussions over the years on "what if ... " with this rule but it hasn't changed.  I'd prefer the phrase "If it ain't broke, we don't need to fix it.".  And if it's broken, we should probably suggest specific ways to fix it

The holder here is the ball carrier who gets the exception for his knee on the ground.  He simply needs to be tackled like any other ball carrier.  It's up to us to make a determination if that tackle was excessive given the at risk position the holder is in.

It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel