Author Topic: IR in High School Football?  (Read 28620 times)

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Offline TexDoc

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IR in High School Football?
« on: January 09, 2018, 02:43:37 PM »
I'm curious about thoughts on this.  I've been working in a IR booth for a D1 school for the past 6 or 7 years, so I'm very familiar with the process and the equipment, but I'll hold my opinion for now.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/highschool/article/Title-games-possible-start-for-instant-replay-in-12458563.php?utm_campaign=twitter-premium&utm_source=CMS%20Sharing%20Button&utm_medium=social

Offline TXMike

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 03:57:15 PM »
My greatest concern when the discussions turned serious about IR in HS has been inserting an element into the game that the players, coaches, and on field officials are not used to.   I am fairly confident they would use current college IR crews  in the booth. I don't see any way around that. But what about on the field?   The game with IR is officiated differently than the game without.  So what will they do?  Bring in college officials who currently operate in IR environment?   

And I think we have all seen times when even IR "gets it wrong", so not sure this is the solution to whatever "problem" is perceived.

If it is going to be used, it would have to be modified from the NCAA model. (And might want to even consider adding rule misapplication as something that it could fix)


Offline Welpe

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 04:15:04 PM »
If it is going to be used, it would have to be modified from the NCAA model. (And might want to even consider adding rule misapplication as something that it could fix)

I agree. It would make the most sense starting out to limit what can be reviewed to a narrower scope.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 07:06:14 AM »
My greatest concern when the discussions turned serious about IR in HS has been inserting an element into the game that the players, coaches, and on field officials are not used to.   I am fairly confident they would use current college IR crews  in the booth. I don't see any way around that. But what about on the field?   The game with IR is officiated differently than the game without.  So what will they do?  Bring in college officials who currently operate in IR environment?   

And I think we have all seen times when even IR "gets it wrong", so not sure this is the solution to whatever "problem" is perceived.

If it is going to be used, it would have to be modified from the NCAA model. (And might want to even consider adding rule misapplication as something that it could fix)

I agree.  And it would be very difficult to use replay in any games other than the championship game simply because most facilities are not set up for IR.  You have to have a group of cameras and cameramen, a production truck and feed to an isolated booth in HD.  If you don't use HD, you're wasting your time.  The once in a lifetime element of utilizing IR for the officials really does present a problem.  But, the misapplication of a rule can be very easily solved.  I think most crews in the championship games utilized O2O radios.  There can certainly be an expert in the press box with that same radio that can talk directly to the crew should there be a misapplication. I've seen that done from the IR booth in games where I've worked.  They have also corrected spots on the fly instead of buzzing for a replay.  Would the booth be able to "throw a flag" as it does in NCAA games for illegal participation and targeting? Or, would it just be used for spots and possession and thumbs up on scores?  The booth cannot call off a flag or a whistle, other than targeting so a bad flag would not get corrected, or one that should be thrown, thrown from the booth.  I'm not sure it does what coaches and the UIL think it does for the game. 

Offline Kalle

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 07:19:29 AM »
You might want to consider the IFAF video judge system, which IMO suits better in occasional IR availability. http://www.myiafoa.org/rules/2018/ifaf2018/12.html

Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 08:17:03 AM »
You might want to consider the IFAF video judge system, which IMO suits better in occasional IR availability. http://www.myiafoa.org/rules/2018/ifaf2018/12.html

The list of reviewable fouls is quite significantly different from NCAA and I don't think could apply to our high school game. 

Offline TxSkyBolt

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IR in High School Football?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 09:20:35 AM »
I agree.  And it would be very difficult to use replay in any games other than the championship game simply because most facilities are not set up for IR.  You have to have a group of cameras and cameramen, a production truck and feed to an isolated booth in HD.  If you don't use HD, you're wasting your time.  The once in a lifetime element of utilizing IR for the officials really does present a problem.  But, the misapplication of a rule can be very easily solved.  I think most crews in the championship games utilized O2O radios.  There can certainly be an expert in the press box with that same radio that can talk directly to the crew should there be a misapplication. I've seen that done from the IR booth in games where I've worked.  They have also corrected spots on the fly instead of buzzing for a replay.  Would the booth be able to "throw a flag" as it does in NCAA games for illegal participation and targeting? Or, would it just be used for spots and possession and thumbs up on scores?  The booth cannot call off a flag or a whistle, other than targeting so a bad flag would not get corrected, or one that should be thrown, thrown from the booth.  I'm not sure it does what coaches and the UIL think it does for the game.
Agree with the solution on misapplication of rules. There were at least 3 egregious examples in this years championship games. An expert in the booth with O2O could have corrected them. (So could crews knowing correct enforcement for all fouls,but that’s another nut to crack.)


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Online ElvisLives

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 11:58:37 AM »
(So could crews knowing correct enforcement for all fouls,but that’s another nut to crack.)
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That is, actually, the first nut to crack.  Replay should only be used to review things that happen so fast as to defy recognition by the humans that have primary responsibility for making a ruling.  If we are having so many rule application errors that Replay is needed to better officiate the games, then, perhaps, as the responsible institutions, TASO and the UIL are failing to a) properly and fully train our members, and b) put the best actual officials on the field.

For what my opinion is worth, Replay is not a door that the UIL wants to open.  As soon as they use it in a championship game, teams that didn't get there are gonna immediately claim they got 'cheated' out of making the championship game by a bad spot, etc., even as far back as district play.  Then the pressure will be on to expand it to all playoff games, then all district games, then ALL games, period.  That will take an enormous investment in infrastructure (and maintenance), that school districts simply won't be able to afford.  I would hope voters don't approve public funding for such.  If the athletic departments can't support Replay with ticket sales, they don't need it.
I go back to the first days of NCAA replay, and remember how poor the systems were.  Imagine what it will be like at UIL stadiums.

Let's our guys trained to the point that 'egregious' errors are essentially non-existent, and the gap of inconsistency in judgment is narrowed to maximum extent possible.  And forget about replay in HS.  At least until some way to PRIVATELY fund and maintain systems for HS that approach the quality of the Power 5 NCAA conferences and/or the NFL.  And pay to train and pay competent ROs.

That'll be the day.  (With apology to Buddy.)

Again, for what my opinion is worth, the system we have isn't so broken that we need replay.  Yeah, we need to fix the assignment system, and get better at training.  But, all-in-all, our guys do a good job, and we don't need replay.

Robert

Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 12:31:45 PM »
I go back to the first days of NCAA replay, and remember how poor the systems were.  Imagine what it will be like at UIL stadiums.

You got that right.  When I started we were using SD feed from in-house production, and we might as well have just not even been there.  The video was that bad.  It was rare the RO turned anything over back then.  The old system was XO's and it was really bad.  The one we had came from Univ of Hawaii and was garbage.  It didn't work half the time.  DVSports has a much better system and now we have synchronized 4 camera feed, and in HD.  Replay has come a very long way in just the few years I've been involved with it.  The biggest complain I have now, and have for years, is the post game process.  They need to get that better organized. 

Also, I think you're right about opening the door to replay at just the final games.  The entities that can afford the equipment will want it, but there are not many of those.  Then, where do you get hundreds of people to be RO's and then technicians and communicators and green hats... on and on.  We already have a huge shortage.  There will not be enough bodies to have replay at every game.  And the cost would be staggering.  DVSports' system is very expensive.

Online Etref

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 05:46:48 PM »
IR will not work for a one time event. Calls are made differently with and without IR.
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Offline clearwall

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 10:10:57 AM »
I'm with just about everyone on here that it doesnt make sense to invest the hundreds of thousands that it would take to create a new IR system for HS FB, but how about a solution that both utilizes replay AND eliminates the cost? As the article here mentions, both NRG and AT&T already have the systems in place to do IR. But we also have locations that have IR for COLLEGE games too. SMU, TCU, UNT in Dallas. Kyle, Lane, Jones, UTEP, etc around the state. So what if a possible solution was to play all semi final games and most quarters there as well? That way you could bring the IR process down to the earlier rounds as well. You could do as TxDoc mentions and just use college IR guys to run it from the booth and the only additional expense would be to get operators and production crews to serve up the feeds as they would during a normal CFB broadcast.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 11:27:25 AM »
I'm the tech for all UTSA games in the Alamodome.  They have a system, but it belongs to UTSA.  That presents a problem in that the high schools would not own the equipment, but instead would have to come to some arrangement to be able to utilize it.  In UTSA's case, the same system is used for basketball, as many other schools do because of the expense of the systems.  That means they are not always available.  That being said, everyone needs to keep mind, just because a college utilizes IR, that does not at all mean that system is available at all times in that facility, and more likely than not, will not be available.  If the system is rented from DVSports, you also have to bring in a person from DVSports and probably pay them tremendously more than what officials on the field are making.  There are very many things to consider before going down this road.  And, at the end of the day, have we really gained that much, improved the game, or raised it to the level of the expectation of perfection?  Is it really that important in high school football to be absolutely correct and do those couple of questionable calls a game really have that much affect on the final score?  I don't think so, not for the expense.  Especially when you realize IR will only affect spots, possession and scoring plays, and very little else.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:46:59 AM by TexDoc »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 01:11:16 PM »
http://www.hawaiiprepworld.com/football/instant-replay-experiment-in-hawaii-continues/

Ridiculous and stupid are the best words I can find for this article.  First and foremost, really, you're going to use TIVO equipment for IR?  Seriously?  We just went back 10 years.  The use of TIVO was the backup to the backup for a crappy system to begin with.  The game would have to be televised and in HD, or it is useless.   And TIVO?  Really?  Stupid.  If you're going to do it, do it right.  If TIVO is your option, pick it up, throw in the trash, and just go with the officials' calls. 

Second.  This really bothers me:

“That’s how it is. We all know it. If there is a presumed incorrect call, fans will be mad at the officials. If a call is proven correct, they are off the officials. If a call gets corrected, somebody looked at it and made sure it was right and everybody is happy. (For officials), it’s like a get out of jail free card.”

What calls???  You cannot review a flag!  You cannot pick up or throw a flag with IR, other than too many on the field and targeting.  So what the heck is he talking about?  Spot, possession and scoring plays are all that might be helped, but without multiple angles, you can't really make a good call, and without a handheld at the ez, what's the use on scoring plays. 

What a waste of time.

Offline Coby

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 09:42:20 AM »
We have the technology.  We can build it!

Like I have said on here for 3 or 4 years....

HUDL Sideline is the tool that we can adapt to our use.  It is cheap and already being implemented everywhere but Texas.  With HUDL sideline you can see the plays instantly streamed down to the sideline.  Using video on the sideline and half time is illegal in NCAA so obviously HUDL only sells HUDL sideline to the other states.  The EZ tight and wide angles will be available.  Coach throws a flag or there is a question about targeting.  I go to my 6th man grab my ipad and look at the play.  I believe I would be faster then NFL replay but that is debatable.

Step 2: pylon goal line cams.  Once again streamed thru HUDL Sideline.

Step 3: go pro helmet cams on U and R.  Once again streamed thru HUDL Sideline.

What I am against is College only super crews calling state championships.  This is wrong and would cause even greater dissension among the rank and file.  With my plan there is basically no cost to the district (they already have wireless at their stadium for the most part) until you get to Step 2 & Step 3, and that can be implemented for under $1200.

We need to have HUDL certified crews NOW.  In 2 years we need to have IR certified crews.

Online Etref

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 09:59:53 AM »
Guys, HUDL is a great training tool. But you are depending on the local schools for quality. Some is good, some passable and some horrible.

Just admit at the high school level, there will be human element involved and move on!
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Offline Coby

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 10:17:28 AM »
I am personally waiting to call games from my house via Drones!  I can probably call 3 games at once.  The damn districts will probably refuse to pay my mileage correctly thou!

Online ElvisLives

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 01:49:48 PM »
Millennials...
What are you gonna do? pi1eOn

Offline TexDoc

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 08:49:09 PM »
Using hudl as a replay technology is simple not going to happen.  You either use DVSports, or you’re wasting your time. 

Offline Sumstine

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 04:15:27 PM »
The system using the production feed and DVR worked great! We reviewed all scores and COP's and coaches could challenge any other rule that can be reviewed in NCAA. For HS and DVR system is not a step back and can be accomplished with a couple of TV's for under 1k. Anyone is welcome to join me next year at Aloha Stadium to evaluate in person.

Offline Sumstine

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2018, 04:36:37 PM »
Ridiculous and stupid are the best words I can find for this article.  First and foremost, really, you're going to use TIVO equipment for IR?  Seriously?  We just went back 10 years.  The use of TIVO was the backup to the backup for a crappy system to begin with.  The game would have to be televised and in HD, or it is useless.   And TIVO?  Really?  Stupid.  If you're going to do it, do it right.  If TIVO is your option, pick it up, throw in the trash, and just go with the officials' calls. 

Second.  This really bothers me:

“That’s how it is. We all know it. If there is a presumed incorrect call, fans will be mad at the officials. If a call is proven correct, they are off the officials. If a call gets corrected, somebody looked at it and made sure it was right and everybody is happy. (For officials), it’s like a get out of jail free card.”

What calls???  You cannot review a flag!  You cannot pick up or throw a flag with IR, other than too many on the field and targeting.  So what the heck is he talking about?  Spot, possession and scoring plays are all that might be helped, but without multiple angles, you can't really make a good call, and without a handheld at the ez, what's the use on scoring plays. 

What a waste of time.

There are certain "flag" plays that can be reviewed and/or created in replay. In our state the televised games or Aloha Stadium games have at least 6 cameras. That is how I am able to produce training videos with multiple angles. We have used replay in all star games for three years with great success using a DVR or TIVO and have not had any issues. I have been involved with replay since 2005 either as an on-field official or replay official and have a good idea of how it has evolved over time. I invite you personally to visit and observe or even participate in the program. I would also ask that you use some professional courtesy as it relates to your comments about my involvement and experience.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:12:41 PM by Sumstine »

Offline clearwall

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2018, 10:19:46 AM »
Matt, I read the article about you in, I think Referee magazine but I forget exactly where, and was intrigued about what you were doing down there. It started to make me think about what we COULD do here in Tx short of the DVSports setup or having a full production setup. In the end, even if it isnt 100% perfect, I think coaches and fans will be happy it's SOMETHING. I mean, even if we never overturn a call because we have crappy video, I think there will be less of a reaction to missed calls by the game participants if they know we at least looked at it.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2018, 10:53:00 AM »
And another thing...

When a play is reviewed at an FBS stadium, the play is typically presented to the entire stadium on the video board, so the crowd at least has some idea about what is being reviewed. 
Yes, a lot of Texas high school stadia have video boards, but they remain in a very strong minority.  I don’t imagine every school district that currently doesn’t have a board will suddenly find the funds to install boards, and pay for somebody to operate it, maintain it, etc.  I’m sure most Texans know that many, many school districts are struggling to just keep their doors open, much less put a video board in their stadia that seat just a few hundred people.  Indeed, even some larger districts don’t put enough rear-ends in seats to pay their game-day overhead (including game officials) from the gate receipts.  Board of Trustee meetings in which a video board purchase is discussed get very, uh, shall we say, “interesting.”  Honestly, if I was a taxpayer in one of those districts, I’d probably raise heck if they wanted to use tax revenue to buy a board, when the kids were riding 20-year old yellow dogs to school every day, that required regular maintenance just to keep them running.
Between the cost of the Replay video system (at any level of sophistication/quality), the replay official, at least a technical assistant, if not a true replay assistant, camera operators, and, perhaps, a video board, there are still only a handful of districts that are going to be in a position able to implement replay, even if they can convince their Trustees to spend the money.  Very few school districts in Texas with multiple HSs use a common district stadium, so they’d have to provide these systems at each of their stadia.  And, if Replay is to be used at any level below the championship games, how?  Would a common system need to be dictated by the UIL? Would the ROs be trained and provided through TASO?  What would happen if/when they want to play at a non-UIL site (like an NCAA stadium)?  Would the schools bring the Replay system? Or use the system available on site?  What if it is a different system, and the RO/TA are unfamiliar with it?

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  The NCAA has spent over 10 years figuring all this out, with a fraction of the total number of institutions in the UIL.  I can’t speak for other states, but, at least in Texas, they didn’t/don’t have to worry about taxpayers, since state institutions are not permitted to use tuition revenue for athletics.  All athletic departments and sports are self-supporting through ticket sales, donations, etc.  Far easier for the NCAA to mandate, and implement, the use of replay.

I just don’t see it happening for UIL.  Yeah, they may try it for championship games, but they’ll open a Pandora’s box they’ll never get closed.

Robert


Offline clearwall

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2018, 11:12:21 AM »
I think you're inventing problems that dont exist though. I think the options for this are do we do IR for PLAYOFF games only. I dont hear any clamoring for instituting it at 100% of TXHSFB games anywhere. So no one is saying Gunter or Chilicothe or Three Rivers needs to put up video boards to institute replay. And even if we did try to do 100% of games, you dont need a video board to do it anyway. Notre Dame only just put up a video board in their stadium last season but there has been replay there for nearly a decade. The lack of a board doesnt preclude you from doing it.
You also mention that the NCAA has been doing this for years...so why can't the UIL take those lessons and institute them here? Why do we have to start at square 1? That doesn't seem to make sense, logically. You stand on their shoulders and do  a stripped down version of their system. Again, even if a TX replay system isnt perfect, it'll be better than nothing.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: IR in High School Football?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2018, 12:43:08 PM »
Clearwall,
There hasn’t been a clamoring, because it hasn’t been used, yet.  Scenario:  North Texas HS wins the state championship by 1 point, at Jerry World, with replay used the game.  South Texas HS lost a first round, non-IR playoff game to North Texas HS by less than 7 points, and there was a potential TD catch for South Texas that was ruled OB, and video clearly, indisputably shows the receiver’s foot was inbounds.  South Texas will immediately begin to claim they were better than North Texas and should have won their game and advanced to the next round.  They’ll start clamoring for replay at all rounds of playoffs. 
Then, in a district with five very good teams, one that loses to the other(s) by one point in district play (their only loss(es)), and there were similar plays that would be changed by IR, if it was used, and they are gonna claim they should have won that/those games and made it into the playoffs.
These are not dream scenarios.  They have already happened.  Open the door with IR in the championship games, and there will be clamoring by some folks to get replay for playoffs, and ultimately, all district games, if not all games.  The bean counters may prevail, at least for a while.  But, the clamoring by the losers will happen.
The NCAA had the financial capacity to make it happen.  But even there, it took several years as it grew from FBS conference games only, to all FBS games, and now into FCS, etc.  The UIL doesn’t have that capacity.
Concur that a video board certainly is not necessary for IR.  I wasn’t suggesting that it was.  But, the fans are gonna want to know what is going on, and, “The ruling on the field is a completed catch.  The previous play is under further review...” doesn’t exactly tell them much.  And that is assuming the field is  equipped with a field mic (still a lot that aren’t), and the R is trained and proficient in using it.

Robert