Author Topic: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?  (Read 17350 times)

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Offline sirhoagy

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Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« on: March 27, 2018, 08:03:46 PM »
1st-and-goal for A from the B's 9-yard line. 

A snaps the ball at the 9.  A14 hands the ball to A22. 

A22 runs forward to B's 3-yard line, is hit, fumbles.

B75 kicks the ball, which is on the ground at tje B 3-yard line (not moving) into B's end zone where the ball goes over the end line.

-----------------

This happened last year during a college club game.  Thankfully, (a) it was a blowout, and (b) in the grand scheme of things, the game didn't matter.

I had two officials come up to me and give their interpretation as to the rule.  Two more gave their interpretation.  The other two, who were new officials to college ball, said nothing.

(I was the referee for that game)

I gave a ruling, but, I knew we blew it.

I presented this during our rules meeting, and, even in a room full of experienced officials, there was disagreement, lots of rule-book review.  It's still discussed.

What's the ruling?

Who ends up with the ball?

Where do you spot the ball?

Clock status?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2018, 08:27:20 PM »
The result of the play is a safety. B75's kick adds new impetus, so B is responsible for the ball going across their goal line (8-7-2-b). The penalty for illegal kicking does not specify an enforcement spot, so it is enforced via 3-and-1. This is a foul by the team not in possession, so it is enforced from the basic spot. The basic spot on a run that ends beyond the neutral zone is the end of the run.

So, Team A can choose 2 points and have B free kick from the B-20, or enforce the penalty half the distance from the B-3 and replay 1st and goal from the B-1.5. Most teams will take the safety and the ball back. But in a late game where a team is down more than 2, they may keep the ball. Or the rare case where they're up by a couple points and don't want to give B the chance at an onside kick.

It's important to note that in this play the enforcement spot and spot of the foul are both the B-3, but, no matter where the foul occurred, the penalty would be enforced from the B-3 since that is the basic spot for the foul. Also, the enforcement spot is just that: a spot. The ball should be at the same lateral position on the field as the fumble was. So if the ball was snapped at the left hash, fumbled in the middle of the field, and the kick was on the right hash, the ball should be spotted in the middle if A chooses to accept he penalty.

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2018, 08:55:03 AM »
1st-and-goal for A from the B's 9-yard line. 

A snaps the ball at the 9.  A14 hands the ball to A22. 

A22 runs forward to B's 3-yard line, is hit, fumbles.

B75 kicks the ball, which is on the ground at tje B 3-yard line (not moving) into B's end zone where the ball goes over the end line.

-----------------

This happened last year during a college club game.  Thankfully, (a) it was a blowout, and (b) in the grand scheme of things, the game didn't matter.

I had two officials come up to me and give their interpretation as to the rule.  Two more gave their interpretation.  The other two, who were new officials to college ball, said nothing.

(I was the referee for that game)

I gave a ruling, but, I knew we blew it.

I presented this during our rules meeting, and, even in a room full of experienced officials, there was disagreement, lots of rule-book review.  It's still discussed.

What's the ruling?

Who ends up with the ball?

Where do you spot the ball?

Clock status?

LegacyZebra gave you a good explanation of this, but I have to ask...what did you guys rule?  :)

Offline Kalle

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2018, 09:19:46 AM »
LZ described the correct answer for the question as posed, but to add that even if you deem that the kicking action is accidental, the end result is still a safety as the ball was at rest.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2018, 09:28:15 AM »
LZ described the correct answer for the question as posed, but to add that even if you deem that the kicking action is accidental, the end result is still a safety as the ball was at rest.

Good point.  For a ball at rest any touching, even accidental, adds new impetus.  In the play, if the kicking was accidental, there would not be a foul but impetus does change.

Offline FBOfficialSJ

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2018, 10:05:00 AM »
Remember, Kicking can not be accidental.  Kicking is an intentional act.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2018, 10:53:23 AM »
Remember, Kicking can not be accidental.  Kicking is an intentional act.

Exactly.  It would be a muff if the foot hits the ball in an attempt to recover it.

Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2018, 11:46:37 AM »
*I don't wanna say how we ruled, but, I'm going to*

*cringe*

We ruled touchback.

Before you get out the pitchforks and torches, here's what happened on the field.

I was R.

I see the ball carrier get popped, and, I see the ball squirt loose (nothing happening back there with my QB, it's just me and him, so, I'm watching the ball carrier do his thing)

I don't see the ball, all I see is a mass of bodies.  I do see the ball cross over the end line.  Whistles blow, no flags, but, we all get together. 

My FJ was experienced, he comes running in.  This is how the conversation went, more or less:

FJ: I have the ball kicked over the end line, ball was still moving when B kicked it.  Touchback.
LJ: No, the ball wasn't moving. It was stationary.  That's a safety.
U: I didn't see the ball one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure that's a touchback.
BJ: I don't know what happened with the kicked ball, I just know it went over the end line <-- he has no idea who kicked it, so he's out of the discussion.
SJ: Brand new, he just stood there <-- he, too, is out of the conversation
HL: I saw the kicked ball, B kicked it.  That's a safety.
R (me):  Okay , we can agree there's a kicked ball.  Can we all agree that B kicked it?

Everyone agrees. 

However, FJ is arguing the ball was moving and thus that's not new impetus.  FJ passionately argues this viewpiont.  Others start to agree that it's not new impetus.
I had a funny feeling in my gut that this indeed is new impetus.  However, FJs passioned pleas get to me and I start to think, damnit, there must be some nuance in the rule I don't understand.  I start to doubt my judgement. 

I explain TOUCHBACK to the pressbox.  The whole time I'm thinking, this isn't right.

Only A complained.  No one else did, not even A's coach.  I said, it's a TB, we're done, moving on.

A dropped it, they were winning by four TDs, it was late in the game.

Game is over, and as soon as we're done, we all (refs) start to immediately discuss that play.  Some are now doubting it was a TB.  FJ and U are agreeing we got it right.  I started to argue that the impetus DID change and the ball, rolling or not, is immaterial.

FJs argument is "The ball was rolling towards the end zone and, had it been not kicked, would have ended up there anyway, and, if it did, it would be a touchback."

I responded, "That may be true, but, we can't make a judgement based on what COULD happen."

I sat in my car for 20 minutes going over the rules.  I kept thinking, we had an illegal kick, penalize from the spot....but, as stated, there's no ruling for a spot for illegal kick.

Even in our rules meeting, some of the veteran officials were having difficulty giving a firm ruling.  Some as well were hanging on the "The ball was rolling into the EZ."

One MAC conference official who works the wing said, "The movement of the ball, rolling or not, is immaterial. New impetus was added by B.  The ball went over the end line, out of the EZ, it's a safety."

No one argued with him, and, I also agreed based on my huge amount of self-reflection and rule-book/case-book/Redding study guide, yep, safety.

We screwed that play up big-time, and you can bet your bottom dollar I won't ever make that mistake again!


Offline bossman72

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2018, 01:00:28 PM »
Did you guys have a flag on the field for illegally kicking the ball?

Those are tough to sort out as an R.  It's like that movie I-Robot with Will Smith and he's talking to the hologram: "My responses are limited, you must ask the right questions."  Sometimes you have to ask your crew the right questions to pry the correct information out.  Maybe if you asked if the ball was illegally kicked or muffed that would have changed their answer.

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 01:27:30 PM »
*I don't wanna say how we ruled, but, I'm going to*

*cringe*

We ruled touchback...

Thank you for the explanation.  This is a great learning opportunity for all of us as it could easily happen in any of our games.

Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2018, 01:31:42 PM »
Did you guys have a flag on the field for illegally kicking the ball?

Nope.  It was clear based on all of the answers we had, flag or no flag, we needed to figure out who kicked the ball.
Even then, there was no discussion as to "illegal kick" but it entered my mind many times. 

If we *did* have an illegal kick, I would have penalized it, flag or no flag.  But it was a cluster-f*ck of a discussion after that and we took way too long to sort it out.

It's been almost six months, a college club game, the play result either way wouldn't have meant anything, and it's still bugging me to this day.

Offline Etref

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2018, 01:52:19 PM »
I still think about one I kicked over 25 years ago.  hEaDbAnG
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline bossman72

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2018, 01:55:43 PM »
It's been almost six months, a college club game, the play result either way wouldn't have meant anything, and it's still bugging me to this day.

That's not a bad thing - shows you care!

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2018, 04:53:45 PM »
Before you get out the pitchforks and torches, here's what happened on the field.

SirHoagy
Shame on ANYONE that would call for any form of castigation.  The fact that you are asking the question here means that you care about the answer, and that makes all the difference in the world.  Anyone that hasn't made a significant error hasn't been doing this very long.

Indeed, I made a "catastrophic" error in an FBS game some years ago.  I will never forget it.  But, I survived.  I did not, and will not, let it consume me.  So, don't let it do anything to inhibit you from moving forward and growing.  We are in this together.

Onward and upward.

Robert

Offline Kalle

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 12:28:35 AM »
I actually argue that an official voluntarily "confessing" to an error and figuring out the right answer is a far better official than one that commits a much lesser error but doesn't attempt to learn from it.

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 10:23:17 AM »
I actually argue that an official voluntarily "confessing" to an error and figuring out the right answer is a far better official than one that commits a much lesser error but doesn't attempt to learn from it.


 yEs: yEs: yEs:

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 11:09:40 AM »
I actually argue that an official voluntarily "confessing" to an error and figuring out the right answer is a far better official than one that commits a much lesser error but doesn't attempt to learn from it.

Kalle, you are absolutely correct, and there is no argument to that.

Robert

Offline ljudge

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 11:27:06 AM »
I still think about one I kicked over 25 years ago.  hEaDbAnG

Yeah, I have one of those that will haunt me.  I work FCS-level as a back judge.  A referee went down on my off week and I was asked to work R (I had 10 years in HS as R) for a junior college game.  Guard goes out for a pass and catches the damn ball.  Flags for Ineligible downfield touching the ball.  I know this is not a loss of down foul but of course not used to calling (or administering it).  So when foul reported I replied with "OK, so we have an originally ineligible player downfield who caught the ball" so we have illegal touching by an originally ineligible player and so we'll march off 5 yards and replay of 3rd down."  Defensive players overheard me speaking to the crew.  The entire team is telling me I have it wrong along with their entire coaching staff yelling same from sideline.  Then, all 6 officials from the crew chimed in and emphatically told me that I was about to screw it up.  I thought, huh, am I having a major brain cramp???  I allowed them to basically talk me out of it.  I was the only person in the darn stadium who knew the rule and let an entire crew talk me out of it.  I was told to not come in to the locker room with a chip on my shoulder/dictator and to just assimilate with the crew and get thru the game.  I knew "something" was wrong and was bothered of how I could be so irresponsible in forgetting a rule.  Bothers me to this day that I allowed it to happen but the good side is it was a blowout of sorts and the crew all learned from it.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2018, 01:17:16 PM »
Yeah, I have one of those that will haunt me.  I work FCS-level as a back judge.  A referee went down on my off week and I was asked to work R (I had 10 years in HS as R) for a junior college game.  Guard goes out for a pass and catches the DARN ball.  Flags for Ineligible downfield touching the ball.  I know this is not a loss of down foul but of course not used to calling (or administering it).  So when foul reported I replied with "OK, so we have an originally ineligible player downfield who caught the ball" so we have illegal touching by an originally ineligible player and so we'll march off 5 yards and replay of 3rd down."  Defensive players overheard me speaking to the crew.  The entire team is telling me I have it wrong along with their entire coaching staff yelling same from sideline.  Then, all 6 officials from the crew chimed in and emphatically told me that I was about to screw it up.  I thought, huh, am I having a major brain cramp???  I allowed them to basically talk me out of it.  I was the only person in the darn stadium who knew the rule and let an entire crew talk me out of it.  I was told to not come in to the locker room with a chip on my shoulder/dictator and to just assimilate with the crew and get thru the game.  I knew "something" was wrong and was bothered of how I could be so irresponsible in forgetting a rule.  Bothers me to this day that I allowed it to happen but the good side is it was a blowout of sorts and the crew all learned from it.

LJ,
This is so classic.  Don't know how long you've been working in total, but, perhaps before you got started, there was a time when such illegal touching in NCAA carried a loss-of-down with the penalty.  I'll have to research, but I'm sure that was no less than 15 years ago. 
For most folks, it takes actual on-field experience with a rule - especially a rule change - to have it correctly and permanently ingrained in their minds.  These fouls are so infrequent - indeed, rare - that it may be years after a rule change that it gets experienced on the field.  And, in that time, it is easy to forget the change.  My guess is the others on that crew had been working prior to the change - and you may have been, too.  They were fixed on the old rule, whereas you were current with the rule, in your mind.  Sadly, you were, perhaps unfairly, put in a position where you were not given the respect you deserved, as much in how they were presenting their information, as the information, itself, that they were offering.  I've seen this happen all too often, although usually with a senior referee refusing to listen to a junior crew member, simply because he was the "junior."  To your crew that day, you were the 'new' referee, and you were to be subordinate to them.  They weren't about to let you get them in trouble.
That's how you become a good crew chief.  Through these events, you learn how to become the leader, knowing how to listen respectfully, but also knowing when and how to make the call you know to be right, even if unpopular.  I once heard General Schwarzkopf make the statement, "When in command, take charge."  That is what a referee must do.  Not with arrogance or contempt, but with conviction.
Thank you for sharing.

Robert
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 03:08:30 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline ljudge

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2018, 10:17:29 AM »
Hey ElvisLives, oddly enough I was the senior person.  I'm a 20-year official 11 years NCAA - (6 at division 1aa / fcs).  At issue for me on that particular day is I didn't want to come off as someone who thinks he's a "big shot" (I'm hardly that) but rather assimilate with the crew.  They all knew what level I worked and if I had been wrong it would have spread like wild-fire that some cocky d-1 official came and got a rule wrong and blew off the crew because I was "cocky" to listen as I felt that I was better than everyone else.  I learned and so did they.  All good guys but an experience I wanted to share.  Glad you enjoyed.

Better story.  On the other side of the coin I worked a playoff game in my very first year with the pee-wee kids.  All officials in the game were high school varsity certified and had many years experience.  We went into overtime.  The crew wasn't 100% sure if O/T was to be played from the 25 (like NJ high schools) or the 10.  I chimed in and said "guys I was reading the rule book a little bit this week studying overtime and I read the 10 yard line).  They told me I was wrong.  We went SEVEN overtime periods using the 25 yard line procedure with ZERO scores.  On one possession the home team had a 15-yard run but ended up getting stopped shy of the goal line that series and never scored.  Finally, after 7 series were complete the referee decided we better start putting the ball at the 10 because these 10-year old kids were wiped out and he was worried about safety.  The away team finally scored in the 8th OT period.  Had we got the placement right the first time (10 yard line) the home team would have won with that 15-yard run.  AFTER the game the crew opened the rule book at their cars and all acknowledged I had this correct and they should have listened.  Talk about a CLUSTER!!!

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2018, 02:41:48 PM »
I guess as long as we are sharing, in the interest of learning, I'll relive my "big one."

Some years ago, had a Friday night (after Thanksgiving) game between the two top teams in the conference.  It was quite cold that night, probably around freezing.
The visiting team was in position to win out (two more games after this one), and get into a BCS bowl game for a legitimate shot at the national championship.  Tight, well played game (and well officiated, to this point, I might add).  In the latter part of the 3rd period the home team had a small lead, with 4th down inside the B-20.  They snapped for a field goal attempt.  The kick was blocked, and the ball was bounding back toward mid-field.  A home team player and two visiting team players were in pursuit of the ball.  The home team player and one of the visiting team players were both about to attempt to recover the ball when the visiting team (receiving team) player swatted the ball forward (for him, toward mid-field), keeping the home team player from being able to make a play on the ball.  As the R, I recognized and processed this act as illegal batting, and got my flag down on it, as I continued to retreat to stay ahead of the ball.  The other visiting team player was able to secure the ball while on his feet, and advanced with more players from both teams in chase.  He was able to run to the other end of the field, to around the A-25, where a home team player finally caught up to him and tackled him.
Visiting team and fans going nuts.
After having run quite hard (for an old man) with the original play, then running back to the area where the foul occurred, with the temperature so cold, I was a quite out of breath (which, I think, played a part in this story).
I coordinated briefly with my U, determined the penalty enforcement, gathered my breath quickly, and made my announcement: "Illegal batting, receiving team.  That's a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul, first down" (receiving team).  We penalized 15 yards (correct yardage at the time, since changed to 10 yards) from the spot the foul, and gave the visiting team the ball, first down.
As we got the ball ready for play for the next down, I was running the play through my mind. 
Visiting team on the ball, now.  Still running the play through my mind, with a nagging feeling that something wasn't quite right.
Visiting team snaps the ball, and the ball carrier is advancing through the line for a nice gain.  About the time the BC crossed the NZ, I realized the error I had made on the penalty enforcement.  Holy Crap, Batman.  The foul occurred during the kicking play, well before the receiving team gained possession.  The penalty should have been enforced at the previous spot, 1/2 the distance to the goal, with the home team retaining possession, and either repeating the down or with a new series (depending if the penalty left the ball across the line-to-gain).  My U was spotting the ball, and I approached him to tell him I/we screwed up.  The light went off in his head, at that point, and we both knew we'd really screwed up.  But, it was too late.  We couldn't fix it, at that point.
I distinctly recall thinking that this is really bad, and we are probably gonna get in huge trouble, with at least a "sit down" for one or more games, or, possibly, even a dismissal.  I also recall thinking, OK, that may be true, but we can't do anything about it now.  We have some 20 minutes of game time remaining. We have to shake off the error, focus, and get the rest of the game right.  I can honestly say, we did just that.  Speaking solely for myself, I was remarkably calm, and just focused on my keys, and duties for the rest of the game.  By now, the rest of the crew had been advised of the error (during the extended TO at the period change).  But there was no moping, no easing of effort or focus.
The visiting team tied the score during the 4th period. Regulation ended in a tie.  On to an extra period.
The visiting team missed a field goal.  The home made a field goal.  Game over.  Visiting team loses their shot at a national championship.

In the dressing room, I gathered the crew together, and we discussed the error, and none of us could explain how it happened.  We all knew the rule.  The only explanation was that we got in a hurry, got caught up in the emotion of the moment, as well as let our minds get affected by the cold temperature.  I told the crew that, as crew chief, I would accept full responsibility.  Of course, as good crew members, they all expressed that this was a crew error, and that 7 on-field guys, plus replay, should have got this right. (Replay could have interceded on the "egregious error" provision.)  However, I still insisted to our coordinator that any repercussion from this should fall on my shoulders, only.

In the long run, we were not disciplined for this error, largely due to the fact that it didn't directly affect the score, or, arguably, the outcome of the game.  I am told that neither team was ever aware of the error.  Certainly not during the game, and, reportedly not in the days/weeks afterward.

But that didn't mean anything to me, or to the crew.  We failed the game, and we failed our fellow officials.  But we got stronger, as a result.  The crew learned to pay attention to all penalty enforcements, and to not take anyone else on the crew for granted, i.e., just because the R says something, don't take it as gospel.  If something doesn't sound right, or, if you have what you believe to be positive knowledge to the contrary, speak up.  I made it very clear that my feelings would not be hurt if anyone challenged anything that was happening on the field.  I learned to slow down, especially on unusual situations such as this, and talk these things through with several folks, even if just to confirm what I knew to be correct.  We did not make any penalty enforcement or rule application errors, thereafter (for the rest of my FBS career, anyway).

I don't let it define my career, and I don't fret over it.  I will remember that play as long as I live, I'm certain.  But, I will also remember some of the exceptionally good calls I made during my FBS days (and the rest of my career).  We should learn from all plays, and continually strive to do justice to the game, and to our fellow officials.

Push forward.

Robert

Offline ljudge

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2018, 04:56:16 PM »
I just had to comment I actually read every word of that post.  Good story.  Thanks for sharing.  We all learn from our mistakes and mistakes shared from others.  It helps us all get better.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2018, 09:13:29 AM »
LineJudge,
I checked, and, prior to 1998, illegal touching by an originally ineligible player of Team A carried a penalty of 5 yards plus loss of down.  In 1998, the loss of down component was eliminated.
You said you were the senior guy, and have been working 20 years. If you started in 97, you would have seen the rule change in 98, which, combined with continued rule study, is why you knew the current penalty.  But, if the other guys had fewer years than you, I can’t figure how they got confused.  They should have never known the old penalty.  Really no excuse for anyone that started in 1998, or thereafter, to not know this rule.

Robert

Offline ljudge

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2018, 11:18:24 AM »
My first season overall was 1998.  I didn't start working NCAA until 2007.  What happened in this particular game is they were all confused with (what I think) the high school rule is.  Most of them (if not all) worked high school ball too.  I gave up high school when I moved into FCS. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Safety, Touchback, Spot foul?
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2018, 12:35:11 PM »
What happened in this particular game is they were all confused with (what I think) the high school rule is.  Most of them (if not all) worked high school ball too.

Ah.  That could very well be the case.  One of the advantages of Texas high school foootball...they use NCAA rules (with some exceptions, but nothing to do with illegal touching).  Regardless, anybody wanting to work NCAA football - any level - simply must learn NCAA rules.
Keep up the good work.

Robert