Author Topic: need help answering 3 questions  (Read 1096 times)

Offline Navcom

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need help answering 3 questions
« on: April 12, 2018, 04:45:03 PM »
my mentor has given me some questions to answer, however, I have been looking at my rule book and I'm getting a bit confused on enforcement. when responding please include play-clock (RFP, Snap). Im only trying to compare my answers with all of you seasoned officials. I appreciate everyone's help. Here Goes:

1. A 2/8 @A-40. QB A11 hands off the ball to A33 who is tackeled @ A-44. During A-33s run, A73 held B56 @ the A-38

2. A F/K@ A-35. The Ball is kicked out of bounds in flight @ B-31. Untouched by team B. what two options are there?

3. A 2/6 @ A-46. Team A is in formation and set for one second and prior to the snap, A-77 leaps forward. The previous play was a run that ended in bounds with 6:37 remaining in the 3rd Qtr.

4. A 2/6 @ A-24. A11 hands off ball to A-32, A-77 holds B-92 @ A-27, A-32 is tackled @ A-36.



Offline ElvisLives

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 06:02:36 PM »
my mentor has given me some questions to answer, however, I have been looking at my rule book and I'm getting a bit confused on enforcement. when responding please include play-clock (RFP, Snap). Im only trying to compare my answers with all of you seasoned officials. I appreciate everyone's help. Here Goes:

1. A 2/8 @A-40. QB A11 hands off the ball to A33 who is tackeled @ A-44. During A-33s run, A73 held B56 @ the A-38
The point of this question whether or not the penalty for the holding foul is enforced from the previous spot, or the spot of the foul.  Since the foul was behind the NZ, by rule, the 10-yard penalty is enforced at the previous spot;  A, 2/18, A-30; (25), RFP.

2. A F/K@ A-35. The Ball is kicked out of bounds in flight @ B-31. Untouched by team B. what two options are there?
There are actually four options when a F/K is OB illegally.
1) B may take the ball 30 yards from A’s restraining line;  B, 1/10, B-35; (25), snap.
2) B may have the 5-yard penalty enforced at the spot where the ball went OB; B, 1/10, B-36; (25), snap.
3) B may have the 5-yard penalty enforced at the previous spot, with A making another free kick; A, 1/10, A-30; (25), legal touch.
4) B may decline the penalty, and take the ball where it went OB; B, 1/10, B-31; (25), snap.

The most advantageous of those options for B is 2), but they might want to have the ball re-kicked, depending on the time and score.



3. A 2/6 @ A-46. Team A is in formation and set for one second and prior to the snap, A-77 leaps forward. The previous play was a run that ended in bounds with 6:37 remaining in the 3rd Qtr.
The point of this question is when the clock starts.  The clock was stopped for an administrative reason, well outside the parameters needed to invoke 3-4-3.  So the clock will start on the Referee’s signal, following enforcement of the 5-yard penalty; A, 2/11, A-41; (25), RFP.

4. A 2/6 @ A-24. A11 hands off ball to A-32, A-77 holds B-92 @ A-27, A-32 is tackled @ A-36.
The point of this question whether or not the penalty for the holding foul is enforced from the previous spot, or the spot of the foul.  Since the foul was beyond the NZ, and the run ended beyond the NZ, the 10-yard penalty is Basic Spot enforcement.  The spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot (end of the run),  so (per the 3 and 1 principle) the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul; A, 2/13, A-17; (25), RFP.

Offline Navcom

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 08:41:02 PM »
Mr Elvis, wow I got it all wrong. Can I send you a shirt from my officials organization?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 08:52:22 PM »
Mr Elvis, wow I got it all wrong. Can I send you a shirt from my officials organization?

Navcom,
No need to send a shirt.  My pleasure.  We are always here to help, and welcome all questions and comments.

Robert

Offline Navcom

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 08:15:09 PM »
he gave me 3 more, but I will save them for tomorrow. Mr Elvis, is there a way to remember the clock and RFP or Snap. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 09:14:49 PM »
...is there a way to remember the clock and RFP or Snap.

The only ‘trick’ I know is to have a signal to remind each other when there are less than 2 minutes remaining in the 2nd and 4th periods.  If you use O2O radios, you probably don’t need a signal - just use the radios to remind each other.  But, without radios, have a signal.  Being an former minor league baseball umpire, my football crew used the same signal we used in baseball for a potential two-out “time play,” which is touching the shoulder with two fingers.  But, the specific signal isn’t important - just the reminder that timing rules have changed.
Otherwise, I know of no ‘tricks’ to remember clock rules or status.  We just have to study and know the timing rules.

Robert

Online Sonofanump

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 11:13:06 AM »
For RFP and Snap, I think there are a few types of plays to remember:

Snap: Scoring play, legal kick play, delay in scrimmage kick formation
RFP: Forward fumble OOB.

What happens under 2- OOB, 3.4.3
What happens under 1- 10sec: fouls, helmets, injuries
What can not occur with less than three seconds on the clock and we will restart it on the RFP...

Offline bossman72

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 08:38:29 AM »
he gave me 3 more, but I will save them for tomorrow. Mr Elvis, is there a way to remember the clock and RFP or Snap. 

Are you talking remember (mnemonics) to remember the rules or remember the clock status during the game?

Rules?  Just gotta study and know them.

During the game, I like to use my down indicator.  Hard to describe in text, but I'll try. 

Let's say we have 1/10 after a touchback.
Scenario 1) RB runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.  To signal the clock is running, I'll put my down indicator around my index and middle finger to show it's 2nd down.
Scenario 2) Incomplete pass.  To signal the clock has stopped, I'll put my down indicator around my middle finger only to show it's 2nd down.

So, If I have my indicator wrapped around multiple fingers, the clock is running.  If it's wrapped around a single finger, the clock is stopped.

That's my method and it works for me.

(also, if they run in bounds for a new 1st and 10, I just wrap it around my thumb and index finger to show it's running).

Offline Navcom

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM »
I like that idea. its tangible. thank you

Offline Navcom

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Re: need help answering 5 questions
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 07:42:07 PM »
1)  First & 10 @ 50. Team A has just been awarded the 1st down but their head coach (HC) is upset because he believes a facemask foul (FMM) was missed. After the chains are set and the officials in place the team A HC comes onto the field and slams is clipboard down in front of the LJ and is flagged. This happens a) clearly before or, b) clearly after the ready for play (rfp) signal is given. Rulings?

2)  Second & 14 @ B-44 late in the 2nd quarter. A88 catches a pass near the SL at the B-29. A88 is contacted inbounds there and driven backward and OB at the B-31 with 0:30 remaining on the clock. Ruling? Clock?

3)  Fourth & 2 @ A-48. A12 receives a shotgun snap at the A-43 and immediately punts. The untouched kick rolls to a stop on the B-7. Ruling?

4)  Fourth & 2 @ A-48. A12 receives a shotgun snap at the A-43 and advances to the B-48 where he punts. The untouched kick rolls to a stop on the B-7. Ruling?

5)  Third & 3 @ A-37. Before the snap B66 enters the NZ between the snapper and left guard but does not make contact. Seeing the movement by B66 causes fullback A44 to immediately lurch forward before stepping back into position. The ball is then snapped but is muffed by the QB and B77 recovers while grounded at the A-35 (for clarity this is all happening in about 2-3 seconds.) Ruling?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: need help answering 5 questions
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 09:06:08 PM »
1)  First & 10 @ 50. Team A has just been awarded the 1st down but their head coach (HC) is upset because he believes a facemask foul (FMM) was missed. After the chains are set and the officials in place the team A HC comes onto the field and slams is clipboard down in front of the LJ and is flagged. This happens a) clearly before or, b) clearly after the ready for play (rfp) signal is given. Rulings?
a) By rule, this penalty is enforced before the line-to-gain is established, so the down/distance will be 1/10 after the penalty; b) by rule, the line-to-gain was established prior to the foul, so the down/distance will be 1/25 after the penalty.  The HC has a UNS added to his ‘counter.’

2)  Second & 14 @ B-44 late in the 2nd quarter. A88 catches a pass near the SL at the B-29. A88 is contacted inbounds there and driven backward and OB at the B-31 with 0:30 remaining on the clock. Ruling? Clock?
Progress is given to the B-29, inbounds, so the clock should stop only to award Team A the first down, then start again on the R’s signal when the ball is ready for play.


3)  Fourth & 2 @ A-48. A12 receives a shotgun snap at the A-43 and immediately punts. The untouched kick rolls to a stop on the B-7. Ruling?
By rule, when a legal scrimmage kick that has crossed the NZ, and is untouched by Team B beyond the NZ, becomes dead, the ball belongs to Team B at the dead-ball spot.  B, 1/10, B-7.

4)  Fourth & 2 @ A-48. A12 receives a shotgun snap at the A-43 and advances to the B-48 where he punts. The untouched kick rolls to a stop on the B-7. Ruling?
Illegal scrimmage kick.  By rule the ball becomes dead when it is kicked, and the 5 yard penalty is enforced at the previous spot, and includes a loss of down - B, 1/10, A-43.

5)  Third & 3 @ A-37. Before the snap B66 enters the NZ between the snapper and left guard but does not make contact. Seeing the movement by B66 causes fullback A44 to immediately lurch forward before stepping back into position. The ball is then snapped but is muffed by the QB and B77 recovers while grounded at the A-35 (for clarity this is all happening in about 2-3 seconds.) Ruling?
By rule, a back cannot be ‘drawn’ into a false start.  This is a false start by A44, and the officials should stop play before the ball can be snapped.  The 5 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot - A, 3/8, A-32.

Offline #92

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 05:51:40 AM »
Are you talking remember (mnemonics) to remember the rules or remember the clock status during the game?

Rules?  Just gotta study and know them.

During the game, I like to use my down indicator.  Hard to describe in text, but I'll try. 

Let's say we have 1/10 after a touchback.
Scenario 1) RB runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.  To signal the clock is running, I'll put my down indicator around my index and middle finger to show it's 2nd down.
Scenario 2) Incomplete pass.  To signal the clock has stopped, I'll put my down indicator around my middle finger only to show it's 2nd down.

So, If I have my indicator wrapped around multiple fingers, the clock is running.  If it's wrapped around a single finger, the clock is stopped.

That's my method and it works for me.

(also, if they run in bounds for a new 1st and 10, I just wrap it around my thumb and index finger to show it's running).
Interesting. But that's about the game clock. I don't think the status of the game clock comes into play until inside the last 2 minutes of either half? But of course in order to create a habit, it's better to have the same routine the entire game.

But (as far as I understand it,) this system doesn't track whether the clock should start on the ready vs the snap? Sometimes after a long injury time out, I struggle to remember the reason why the clock stopped. Was it an INC (clock should start on the snap), or a run (clock should start on the ready)...?

Offline bossman72

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Re: need help answering 3 questions
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 07:49:24 AM »
But (as far as I understand it,) this system doesn't track whether the clock should start on the ready vs the snap? Sometimes after a long injury time out, I struggle to remember the reason why the clock stopped. Was it an INC (clock should start on the snap), or a run (clock should start on the ready)...?

That's the whole purpose of what I do with the indicator.  I'll use your example with my Scenario 1:

RB runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.  I now have the indicator over both my index and middle finger to show 2nd down and the clock is running.  RB is now injured for an extended period of time.  Now we are ready to resume and the R asks what the status of the clock is.  Since I have the indicator over both my index and middle fingers, I know it should be on the ready.

Make sense?