Author Topic: FC of Free Kick  (Read 1154 times)

Offline TXMike

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FC of Free Kick
« on: May 21, 2018, 01:54:05 PM »
Anyone heard any guidance on this.

A81 signals for FC of a Free Kick but A22 is who actually makes the catch at the A-18. Is the ball still placed at the A-25?

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2018, 02:12:56 PM »
No, place the ball at the 18. The ball becomes dead but A22 has not completed a fair catch by definition.

There will be ARs addressing this.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 07:28:10 PM »
By pure definition, the receiver would have to give a valid signal (a fair catch requires a valid signal).  Of course, we know a catch after an invalid signal causes the ball to become dead, but it isnít a ďfair catchĒ by definition.  So, I hope we get written clarification as to whether or not a catch following an invalid signal (inside the B-25) will also qualify for placing the ball at the B-25.  I would think so, but we need to get that in writing (rule, AR, or interpretation).
Also, are we to assume that the B-25 becomes the enforcement spot for KCI and other fouls by A?  I would think so, but we need to get that in writing, too.

Robert

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 08:01:46 PM »
Why do we need ARs for things that the rules spell out? The new rule is regarding fair catches. If it's not a fair catch, the new rule doesn't apply. If the player who catches the ball wasn't the signaller, it's not a fair catch. If he signals after the ball hits the ground and then recovers it, it's not a fair catch. If he gives a valid signal and the ball subsequently hits the ground and he recovers, it's still not a fair catch. None of these situations will place the ball at the 25.

As far as penalty enforcement, the 25 will be an enforcement spot for KCI and other A fouls. This has not been written out yet as far as I know, but was discussed at the national referee's conference. Basically, we are going to treat these like touchbacks. They can relocate the ball laterally and it is an enforcement spot for A fouls.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 07:52:09 AM »
Legacy,
We may not need any ARs, but none of us have seen the final rule language, so we don't know precisely what it will say.  I've been around long enough to have seen some rule changes that morphed from leaning one way prior to publishing, to leaning quite a different way when published.  I'm not saying anything will change here, but, remember, these rules are initiated by coaches/ADs/administrators, who don't know rule language like we do.  So when they asked the Sec-Ed to draft a rule to allow the receiving team to get the ball at the 25 after a FC on a F/K inside the 25, they may not have understood that a "fair catch" requires a valid signal.  They may have intended to include any catch after any signal (valid or invalid), but just didn't know to express it that way.  Perhaps they have now, or will, get that understanding, and direct the Sec-Ed to change it to include any catch after a signal.  Perhaps not.  They may fully understand that this rule requires a valid signal, and that is what they truly want.  But, I don't think anyone wants to be the guy, in week one, that rules an invalid signal, and makes Team B take over at the B-20, when they are expecting to get it at the B-25, without getting a full explanation of the rule change, preferably in writing from the Sec-Ed or National Coordinator.
In the days of Nelson and Adams, we could be certain that the rule language meant exactly what it said, when we first saw it, because we didn't usually see the changes until we got the books. ( Quite honestly, they were a bit better at writing tighter, more concise rules than Redding or Shaw, as good of people as they are.  This is a great example, because they consistently use the term "kickoff" in correspondence, when, in fact, they mean "free kick" (a kickoff is one type of free kick, and the rule applies to all free kicks). Nelson and Adams would have been more careful about that.)  With instant communication today, circumstances are different.  We get early versions of the rule changes, that tend to get edited by the time the final version is released in the book.

Not everyone is able to attend national meetings (referees, replay, etc.), and we aren't directly privy to the discussions in those meetings.  During my days in FBS, I tried to share as much of that information as possible, via forums such as this.  I hope others will pick up that banner.

The problem with this rule is the valid signal.  Until now, an invalid signal rarely caused a problem.  The receiver intended  to make a fair catch, but just gave a crappy signal.  The kicking team saw the signal, as bad as it was, and let him catch the ball; he caught it; the officials stopped the play, and everyone went on satisfied.  In recent years, signals have become worse and worse.  I almost NEVER see a valid signal.  They tend to throw their arm up in front of their face, wipe it over to their side, and then catch the ball.  That is not "more than once."  But, since kicking team players let them make the catch, no harm, no foul, and they don't get any better.
Fortunately, it has been unusual-to-rare to get a kicking team player to contact a receiver after any signal - valid or invalid.  You might get KCI, but rarely contact with the receiver after the catch.  So, we didn't have to explain to Coach B that his player wasn't protected from getting tackled because he gave a crappy signal. 

But, now, if the receiver gives a crappy signal, they won't get the benefit of this new rule.  Here is what will happen: Receivers will give crappy signals, and officials will rule an invalid signal, and award the ball to B at that spot, and Team B will be furious.  Easy for us to say that players just need to learn to give better signals, but the officials are gonna look like the bad guys on this thing.  Or, the officials will accept bad signals as valid (either unilaterally, or upon direction from their coordinators).

Having said all of that, this is another rule that will be very unusual to even see used.  Most FCs on F/Ks are outside the B-25 (pooch kicks).  Otherwise, receivers are rarely faced with a kicking team player threatening to tackle them immediately upon catching the ball on F/Ks.  Even on a F/K after a safety, when the ball is punted, the kicking team players can't rush downfield before the kick, and a punt from the A-20 that lands inside the B-25 in flight (heckuva kick) just won't give them time to get to the receiver that quickly.

But, it would be nice for the "masses" to get a bulletin that explains that, indeed, they seriously mean a "fair catch," as defined, and the coaches know this.

Robert 

Offline Magician

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 11:30:14 PM »
To Robert's point, I've heard some people hear at national clinics that the pooch kick caught/recovered inside the 25 and the receiver takes an immediate knee will also go to the 25. That may have been speculation by the presenter or misunderstood by the person who shared it, but I think we all just need to wait to see what the actual rule says and what the ARs/philosophies say. As with many rule changes the actual application will likely be simple.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 04:12:13 PM »
Anyone heard any guidance on this.

A81 signals for FC of a Free Kick but A22 is who actually makes the catch at the A-18. Is the ball still placed at the A-25?

Just saw a video of Steve Shaw's presentation of rule changes at the CFO Replay Clinic.  He very clearly indicated that they would issue an interpretation indicating that a catch of a free kick, inside the B-25, following ANY TYPE OF SIGNAL (valid or invalid) would qualify for placement at the B-25.  Yes, a catch, not a recovery.  But any type of signal.  He didn't address a catch by a player other than the signaler.  We'll just have to wait on that.

But, he did confirm that the B-25 would be the enforcement spot for A fouls, including KCI.

Robert

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 11:22:55 PM »
Who here thinks we've all but seen the our last KOs with kicks high in the air? Kick the ball sufficient to get it over the first couple of waves of blockers and line-drive it so that the receiver won't have time to signal for fair catch while trying to catch it on the run. Plus, he doesn't want to fair catch a line drived kick at the 30 or 35 as he can easily get 15 yards from there.

Will be very interesting to see what strategy erupts from this rule change.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 10:53:16 PM »
For those that haven't seen the new rule book, the actual language in the rule was edited to include catches after an invalid signal.  So, that's that.

Robert

Offline RedTD

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2018, 08:51:03 AM »
Play: Free Kick is hit on a line (i.e. not high and deep). Ball hits at the 30 and takes an odd bounce and gets by the deep receiver who is coming up to catch/recover the ball. It rolls toward the GL and the receiver realizing it isn't getting to the EZ gives a fair catch signal and picks up the ball. As I read the rule and the editorial change we are going to place this at the 25. Correct?

Offline HoustonUmp

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2018, 11:12:20 AM »
I think that the ball will be dead where he picks in up (recovers it).  A fair catch only applies to a ball that has not hit the ground

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2018, 11:52:45 AM »
Play: Free Kick is hit on a line (i.e. not high and deep). Ball hits at the 30 and takes an odd bounce and gets by the deep receiver who is coming up to catch/recover the ball. It rolls toward the GL and the receiver realizing it isn't getting to the EZ gives a fair catch signal and picks up the ball. As I read the rule and the editorial change we are going to place this at the 25. Correct?

The new rule applies ONLY to "catch" of a free kick (following a valid fair catch signal or an invalid signal).  A "catch" can only be made of a ball that is in flight (hasn't yet touched the ground, from a pass, kick or fumble).  What you have described is a "recovery," and the new rule does not apply to recoveries.  Therefore, following a recovery, Team B gets the ball at the spot of the recovery.

Robert

Offline JasonTX

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2018, 05:30:47 PM »
How does 6-5-1-b come into play?  A team B player gives a valid fair catch signal at the B-20 and the ball is muffed up into the air above his head and then he subsequently completes the catch at the B-18.  Ruling?

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2018, 11:41:40 PM »
Jason, letís start with a catch/recovery behind the B-25, following a valid fair catch signal:

If the signaler completes the catch behind the B-25, Team B gets the ball at the B-25.
If Team A interferes with the signaler, before or as he touches the ball, or after he muffs the ball and then that receiver completes the catch, that is a fair catch, and Team B gets the ball at the B-25 (before any KCI penalty is enforced).
If the receiver muffs the ball, with or without - before or after - any interference, then another B player completes the catch, that is not a fair catch, so Team B gets the ball at the spot where the first receiver first touched the ball (before any KCI penalty).
If there is interference against the signaler, the new penalty statement says to penalize the foul at the B-25 (even if B initially gets the ball at the spot where the ball is first touched, or becomes dead).
At any spot of a B recovery, the ball belongs to B at that spot.

Now, letís talk about a catch/recovery behind the B-25 following an invalid fair catch signal:

If the signaler completes the catch, Team B gets the ball at the B-25.
If Team A interferes with the signaler before or as he first touches the ball, but he is still able to complete the catch, Team B gets the ball at the B-25.  If accepted, any KCI penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul (not the B-25).
If Team A contacts the signaler or ball after he first touches the ball, and he is still able to complete the catch, Team B gets the ball at the B-25 (but there is no KCI foul).
If another Team B player completes the catch, with or without any interference, that is not a fair catch, so Team B gets the ball at the spot where it is caught.  Any KCI penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul.
At any spot of a B recovery, the ball belongs to B at that spot.

Robert

Offline JasonTX

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 05:25:24 PM »
The part of 6-5-1-b I am looking at is "If he (or another Team B player) subsequently catches the kick, the ball is placed where he first touched it."

I get the part about another team B player subsequently catching the kick we are not moving that up to the 25.  But paragraph b is talking about a Signal followed by a Muff and then completing the catch.  If "he" subsequently catches the kick inside the 25 do we move that up or do we leave it "where he first touched it"?

Online ElvisLives

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Re: FC of Free Kick
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2018, 08:42:05 PM »
Paragraph b primarily addresses what happens if there is KCI after B muffs the ball (anywhere on the field).  But, it also addresses what happens if B muffs the ball - anywhere on the field (with or without KCI), and then completes the catch. This paragraph has nothing to do with the new rule.  The editorial change to the rule would have been made, regardless of any of the new rules.  It just added completion of the catch by another B player, in addition to the signaler (which should have been included all along).  They get temporary possession of the ball at the spot where the first receiver first touched the ball.  If the first receiver is the one that completes the catch, that IS a fair catch; so, the new rule kicks in and B gets it at the B-25, if the spot of temporary possession is inside the B-25.  If another player completes the catch, that is NOT a fair catch, so the new rule does not apply, and B gets the ball where the first receiver first touched the ball.

A KCI penalty may change that, but, thatís where they start.

Robert