Author Topic: 2018 NCAA Rules Test  (Read 2617 times)

Offline Chiefump

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2018, 02:55:38 PM »
I need help with question # 2 on the NCAA PDF test version.

Team A's free kick from the A-35 is touched first by A84 at the A-43 before being recovered by B76 while grounded at the A-46.  A81 is flagged for being offside. If Team B does not desire a re-kick, where would they next put the ball in play?

a. A-38
b. A-41
c. A-43
d. A-46

I answered b. Team B will accept the penalty which cancels the illegal touching and give them the ball at the A-41 after the 5yd penalty from the dead ball spot the A-46.
If they declined the penalty they could get the ball at the A-43.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2018, 07:12:54 PM »
b is correct, as is your logic.

Offline Chiefump

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2018, 07:42:07 PM »
Thank you for your response. I am very confused because for some reason this answer was graded as incorrect on the test.

Online goodgrr

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2018, 04:48:06 AM »
The penalty for offside is 5 yards from the previous spot, not 5 yards added onto the dead ball spot.
6-1-2-c-7

7.   All Team B players must be behind their restraining line [S18].
PENALTY [c6-c7]óLive-ball foul. Five yards from the previous spot [S18 or S19].

Offline copedaddy

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2018, 06:40:23 AM »
All fouls by the kicking team (except KCI) may be tacked on. 6.1.8

Online goodgrr

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2018, 03:00:11 PM »
It must have been late, I read team A for B lol

Offline Morningrise

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2018, 05:05:33 PM »
#86: I don't see how the B-8 is a likely outcome. Isn't the B-1 an option too, and a more likely one? If B declines offsetting fouls due to the clean hands exception, Team A isn't forced to accept B's holding penalty. They could just decline it and take the result of the play, which is B's ball @ B-1.

Knowing that A would surely do this, B would never go this route and will instead go with the offsetting fouls. So maybe the answer is A), rekick - except that A) says "No choice for Team B," which is inaccurate, because they do have a choice, just an inferior one. Answering A) would imply that the clean hands exception doesn't apply, but it does.

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2018, 09:59:58 PM »
#86: I don't see how the B-8 is a likely outcome. Isn't the B-1 an option too, and a more likely one? If B declines offsetting fouls due to the clean hands exception, Team A isn't forced to accept B's holding penalty. They could just decline it and take the result of the play, which is B's ball @ B-1.

I agree with your reasoning. I would not even give B-8 as an option to the teams.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 01:15:37 AM by Kalle »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2018, 04:30:16 PM »
For what it is worth, given the incomplete information presented in the statement, I concur that the B-1 is the most likely option that Team A would choose, if they get the opportunity.
However, this is a situation in which Team B really needs to be aware of the possible outcomes.  If they understand that they may decline offsetting fouls, but, in doing so, they face the prospect of getting the ball at the B-1, or they may electing offsetting fouls and repeat the kickoff, I have a feeling they will elect offsetting fouls and repeat the kickoff.  They are far likelier to have a better result with another kickoff than simply taking the ball at the B-1.  Of course, time and score can greatly affect their choice.  But, one thing is for certain, if Team B declines offsetting fouls, Team A will decline B's penalty as well, and force Team B to take the ball at the B-1. And, once Team B elects to decline offsetting fouls, there is no going back - no way to change their choice.

That's why the R must take his time and explain the options and outcomes to Team B. Explain B's options to them (and, like Kalle, in this case, I wouldn't even bother with the B-8 as a possible outcome - that simply won't happen), with emphasis on electing offsetting fouls, and let them make the smart choice (offsetting fouls).  This takes Team A out of the decision making process (which will be the case in the vast majority of "clean hands" scenarios).  Although rare for Team A to decline B's penalty, this is a scenario in which their choice is obvious, and no need to consult with them.

The crew must also advise Team B with respect to remaining game time.  For example, if the clock expired during the down, declining offsetting fouls will open the door for A to decline B's penalty, thus, ending the period/half/game.  That could be a greater influence on Team B's decision than field position.

Unfortunately, the full set of options are not presented as answer choices.  In fact, none of the given options are totally correct.  On the assumption that time & score are not a major consideration for this statement, the best answer would have been, "B, 1/10, B-1, or A, K/O, A-35 (offsetting fouls).  Or, "None of the above."   ;D


Offline FBOfficialSJ

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2018, 11:33:22 AM »
Can someone confirm the answer for #19 below.  I am pretty sure the answer is C because the 10 yard penalty is declined by rule.  Therefore the IT spot comes back into play.  10.2.5.a.2

19. Fourth and 10 at the B-45. A3's punt is touched first beyond the neutral zone by A85 at the B-15, but B21 picks up the kick at the B-10 and advances it to the B-20 where he fumbles. A44 recovers the fumble and carries it across B's goal line. During the kick, B36 holds A17 at the line of scrimmage.
a. A's ball, first and 10 at the B-35. Clock starts on the Referee's signal.
b. A's ball, first and 10 at the B-35. Clock starts on the snap.
c. B's ball, first and 10 at the B-15. Clock starts on the snap.
d. Six points for A. Penalty declined by rule.

Offline thejoe

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2018, 12:15:30 PM »
#19 depends very much on what "declined by rule unless enforcement is made possible by illegal touching of a kick during the down" actually means in 10-2-5.a.2.  Closest I've ever gotten to an understanding of it is along the lines of "if you can find an enforcement spot, then enforcement is made possible", but the relevant ARs  (AR 6-3-2 III-IV) reference 5-2-4 (enforcement of foul after a change of team possession results in the ball belonging to the team in possession when the foul occurs -- in this case the foul occurs before change of team possession), which itself has an exception for 10-2-5.a. 

In this case, the only possible enforcement spot would be the previous spot, as the foul is during the kick and PSK won't apply, so (B) would be the result of that enforcement.  So it's either b or c, but still not sure which.

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2018, 12:31:57 PM »
A.R. 6-3-2-IV (2017 book) provides the reasoning for this to be b). There is a valid enforcement spot, so that takes precedence over 10-2-5-a-2, which really applies only to situations where there is no spot to enforce the foul (c.f. 6-3-2-III).

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2018, 01:34:20 PM »
A.R. 6-3-2-IV (2017 book) provides the reasoning for this to be b). There is a valid enforcement spot, so that takes precedence over 10-2-5-a-2, which really applies only to situations where there is no spot to enforce the foul (c.f. 6-3-2-III).
\

Kalle, I must confess I am as mystified by this rule as anyone, and have been since Redding put it in place around 2008 or so.  But, in the AR you cited, the ruling says that the ball belongs to B, either way (by invoking the illegal touching privilege if their penalty is declined, or after enforcement of the penalty for their holding foul).  Answer option b) gives the ball to Team A, so there is a disconnect there.

Very inconveniently, the AR doesn't indicate what the actual enforcement spot would be, but it 'should' be the end of the related run (B40's fumble), or the spot of the foul, if behind the end of the related run.

The AR may not be "apples to apples," since the foul in the AR is after a literal change of team possession, and, in the exam question, B's foul is during the kick, and, since by result of the down, they would not next put the ball in play, PSK doesn't apply.  So, the basic spot is the previous spot.  I had answer b), because Team A will not let B get the ball at the spot of illegal touching - so they will accept the penalty for B's holding foul.  Enforced at the previous spot, that gives the ball to Team A, 1/10, B-35.

Regardless, I have never understood how illegal touching provides an enforcement spot.  The illegal touching spot, itself, becomes an enforcement spot for a foul?  That certainly is not one of the spots listed in 10-2-2, or in 2-25.

If anyone can explain this rule, and reconcile the ARs and test questions, I am a most willing student.

Robert

 

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2018, 02:59:37 PM »
Regardless, I have never understood how illegal touching provides an enforcement spot.  The illegal touching spot, itself, becomes an enforcement spot for a foul?  That certainly is not one of the spots listed in 10-2-2, or in 2-25.

If anyone can explain this rule, and reconcile the ARs and test questions, I am a most willing student.

I think the two A.R.'s try to illustrate that whenever you do have a valid enforcement spot, you should enforce the foul from there. Rule 10-2-5-a-2 only applies when you don't have any spot. In A.R. II and III, the enforcement spot is the end of the related run, but in II that would be the goal line which would not make any sense, so you can't enforce the foul from anywhere, thus it is declined by rule. In III the end of the related run (the spot of the fumble) is the enforcement spot.

Why add the words "Because the illegal touching provides an enforcement spot"? I think this is to illustrate that if there is no IT, team A would want to decline the penalty anyway, so whether or not it is declined by rule is not really relevant. Simply a poor choice of words, I think.

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2018, 03:47:18 PM »
I'm with Kalle.  Why would something be "declined by rule"?  Like if you had a regular run play for a touchdown and Team B somehow holds... like on a pull and shoot or something.  Where does the Team B foul get enforced from if it's accepted?  The end of the run.  Well, the end of the run is in Team B's endzone and there is a touchdown, so it's literally impossible to enforce that foul, even if you wanted to!  You can't possibly back up Team B anymore. Therefore, they put the rule in that that foul is declined by rule, because there's no other option.

With the kick play and the illegal touching, you can most certainly accept the foul and have an enforcement spot.  So there really is no need to decline it because you actually do have a choice!

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2018, 04:06:36 PM »
Note that this did change in 2008. Until 2007 I think most of us would have declined all team B fouls by rule, but in 2008 the language about the illegal touch appeared as did A.R. III.

Offline heyblue34

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2018, 10:47:22 PM »
#56 A 2/6 at B21, first possession series in the first OT. Score 24-24. A16 throws a pass that is intercepted by B18. During B18's return for a TD, the Side Judge runs into a Team B coach on the field just inside the sideline and drops a flag for sideline interference.

a. Team B wins 30-24.
b. Score is cancelled, penalty is declined. B 1/10 at 25 yard line.
c. Score is cancelled, penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot for the second possession series of OT.

AR 9-2-5 and AR 3-1-3-XI plus the penalty enforcement treats this as a dead ball foul. Looking for clarification on this, thanks.

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2018, 03:50:05 AM »
AR 9-2-5 and AR 3-1-3-XI plus the penalty enforcement treats this as a dead ball foul. Looking for clarification on this, thanks.

I think you are right. a) should be the correct answer.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2018, 06:20:08 AM »
#56 A 2/6 at B21, first possession series in the first OT. Score 24-24. A16 throws a pass that is intercepted by B18. During B18's return for a TD, the Side Judge runs into a Team B coach on the field just inside the sideline and drops a flag for sideline interference.

a. Team B wins 30-24.
b. Score is cancelled, penalty is declined. B 1/10 at 25 yard line.
c. Score is cancelled, penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot for the second possession series of OT.

AR 9-2-5 and AR 3-1-3-XI plus the penalty enforcement treats this as a dead ball foul. Looking for clarification on this, thanks.

Correct.  They get away with this one.  They just need to hope they donít cause the S to miss the score.

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2018, 08:28:00 AM »
#56 A 2/6 at B21, first possession series in the first OT. Score 24-24. A16 throws a pass that is intercepted by B18. During B18's return for a TD, the Side Judge runs into a Team B coach on the field just inside the sideline and drops a flag for sideline interference.

a. Team B wins 30-24.
b. Score is cancelled, penalty is declined. B 1/10 at 25 yard line.
c. Score is cancelled, penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot for the second possession series of OT.

AR 9-2-5 and AR 3-1-3-XI plus the penalty enforcement treats this as a dead ball foul. Looking for clarification on this, thanks.

This was the play (or similar play) from USC/Utah (I think) a few years ago where they changed the score after the game was over.  This was bad because the points covered and then didn't cover the spread, so I think Vegas had to pay out double.

Offline Bigfrizz81

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2018, 11:31:28 PM »
I've been racking my brain and second guessing myself after looking at #4 on this year's exam. If the ball was snapped on the left hash and the DPI occurred downfield by the right hash, would the resulting enforcement of the penalty put the ball on the right hash as opposed to 15 yds from the previous spot on the left hash?

I'm guessing that since it is a spot foul up to 15 yds downfield then that would justify the change in hash but part of me still says to back to the previous spot and march off the corresponding yds on the left hash.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2018, 11:40:39 PM »
Read the penalty statement for 7-3-8-c. Your answer is in there.

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2018, 08:28:39 AM »
I've been racking my brain and second guessing myself after looking at #4 on this year's exam. If the ball was snapped on the left hash and the DPI occurred downfield by the right hash, would the resulting enforcement of the penalty put the ball on the right hash as opposed to 15 yds from the previous spot on the left hash?

I'm guessing that since it is a spot foul up to 15 yds downfield then that would justify the change in hash but part of me still says to back to the previous spot and march off the corresponding yds on the left hash.

"Previous spot" means an exact dot on the field, not just the yard line.  So if the foul is enforced from the previous spot, you'd stay on that hash.  If it is a spot foul, you put it on the exact spot of the flag.

Makes sense?

Offline Bigfrizz81

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2018, 03:22:09 PM »
"Previous spot" means an exact dot on the field, not just the yard line.  So if the foul is enforced from the previous spot, you'd stay on that hash.  If it is a spot foul, you put it on the exact spot of the flag.

Makes sense?

It does make sense. So because the ball was snapped at the B-16 and the foul occurred at the B-1 the ball should be placed at the B-2 and all the enforcement for DPI inside the B-17 would make the distance marched off from the previous spot. so it would be A's ball @ the B-2 from the left hash.

Offline Bigfrizz81

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Re: 2018 NCAA Rules Test
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2018, 03:22:52 PM »
Read the penalty statement for 7-3-8-c. Your answer is in there.

That's what I was overlooking. Thanks.