Author Topic: Another free kick play  (Read 2576 times)

Offline Stinterp

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Another free kick play
« on: July 17, 2018, 07:05:49 PM »
How would you rule on this play.  K free kicks from the K-40 yard line.  While the kick is in the air, K50 is flagged for an illegal block below the waist on the R-40 yard line.  The kicked ball bounces out of bounds, untouched, at the R-10 yard line. What are R's options?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 08:18:28 AM by Stinterp »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 07:54:31 PM »
Two flags on the play. R has to decide which penalty they want. If they take the illegal block penalty, we mark off 15yds from the R?10, (I'm assuming a typo) making it first and 10 at the R25. If they take the OOB flag, R's options are (a) taking the ball at the OOB spot - R10, (b) taking the ball 25yds beyond the previous spot, - R35,  (c) 5yd penalty added to the oob spot -R15  (d) accepting a 5yd penalty from the previous spot and having K rekick - K35. 

Offline prosec34

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 08:54:35 PM »
Would there not be the possibility of the blocking foul being assessed from the previous spot since it was a loose-ball foul? Re-kick from 25 if that penalty is accepted.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:00:44 PM by prosec34 »

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 10:36:59 PM »
How would you rule on this play.  K free kicks from the K-40 yard line.  While the kick is in the air, K50 is flagged for an illegal block below the waist on the R-40 yard line.  The kicked ball bounces out of bounds, untouched, at the K-10 yard line. What are R's options?
Would not the receiving team have the option to accept the 10 yard penalty for the illegal block from the succeeding spot, the 35 yard line?  10-4-2 Exception? 

I do not have my case book for this year.  Is there a case explaining this situation?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 06:26:03 AM »
Would not the receiving team have the option to accept the 10 yard penalty for the illegal block from the succeeding spot, the 35 yard line?  10-4-2 Exception? 

I do not have my case book for this year.  Is there a case explaining this situation?

The 35 does not become the succeeding spot until R makes a decision on the oob foul. If he makes a decision on the oob foul, he has effectively declined the illegal block foul. If he accepts the illegal block foul, the succeeding spot will be the oob spot because he will not have the option to put the ball in play 25 yds beyond the previous spot.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 06:29:30 AM »
Would there not be the possibility of the blocking foul being assessed from the previous spot since it was a loose-ball foul? Re-kick from 25 if that penalty is accepted.

Yes I missed that option.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 08:37:26 AM »
Would not the receiving team have the option to accept the 10 yard penalty for the illegal block from the succeeding spot, the 35 yard line?  10-4-2 Exception? 

I do not have my case book for this year.  Is there a case explaining this situation?

No, this is a multiple foul situation. They are both live ball fouls and you can only accept one.

CalhounLJ nailed it.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 09:23:18 AM »
Still waiting for receipt of my 2018 Rule & Case Books, so all I can reference is the 2/8/18 NFHS "Football Rule Changes-2018" release, which suggests:

6-1-9b (new), 6-1-9b Penalty (new), 10-4-2 (note), 10-5-1 (new): New penalty option for fouls by kicking team:

RATIONALE:  "In an effort to reduce re-kicks, further minimize risk & ensure that appropriate penalties are in place for all fouls the committee has added an option for fouls committed by the kicking team during free and scrimmage kicks.  The change would allow the receiving team all of the previous options as well as accepting the distance penalty at the end of the down."

"The devil is always in the details", but it's helpful to keep in mind what the original intent was.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 09:25:15 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 09:49:48 AM »
This is true. However, in the case being discussed, to allow enforcement of two fouls would go against a basic philosophy of penalty enforcement, which I'm sure was not the intent of the authors of this exception.

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 10:27:38 AM »
The question here is, whether "during the kick" or "during the kick down" is the actual intent of the rule change.

A couple of years back the free kick rule was changed to include the requirement that K have at least 4 players on each side of the free kicker FROM THE RFP.  We then discussed whether the intent was actually "when the ball is kicked".  The following year it was changed to "when the ball is kicked".

It seems likely that we will have to wait until next year to see whether this year's change stays "during the kick down" or is changed to "during the kick".

Offline VA Official

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2018, 09:02:26 PM »
The question here is, whether "during the kick" or "during the kick down" is the actual intent of the rule change.

A couple of years back the free kick rule was changed to include the requirement that K have at least 4 players on each side of the free kicker FROM THE RFP.  We then discussed whether the intent was actually "when the ball is kicked".  The following year it was changed to "when the ball is kicked".

It seems likely that we will have to wait until next year to see whether this year's change stays "during the kick down" or is changed to "during the kick".

They covered that base thankfully.

10-4-2 Exception: "The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."

Edited as this rule will likely be revised to take out the "down"
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 06:54:25 AM by VA Official »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 06:44:40 AM »
I think KWH changed that interpretation in his last post. Now apparently the exception is only in effect during the kick. If the foul happens after the kick the exception does not apply. At least I think that’s right. Sure would like to see something official handed down. 


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Offline blandis

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 06:04:50 PM »
R's option is to have the ball at R35-yard line plus the 5-yard tack on to the R40-yard line and decline the Personal Foul, or accept the Personal Foul and make K rekick 15-yards back from the K25-yard line.

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2018, 12:13:54 PM »
They covered that base thankfully.

10-4-2 Exception: "The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."

Edited as this rule will likely be revised to take out the "down"

Our season starts on 8/17.  Our state association has not put out anything to suggest that "during the kick down" is being changed to "during the kick".  Has anyone heard anything different?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2018, 01:00:29 PM »
No but our district assigner has instructed all our wh’s to treat it this way.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2018, 01:08:47 PM »
R's option is to have the ball at R35-yard line plus the 5-yard tack on to the R40-yard line [...]

This is never an option. The free kick out of bounds penalty can be enforced as a 5 yard tack on from the OOB spot -- OR -- take the ball 25 yards from the previous spot (nominally the 35 under most circumstances). You cannot take the ball 25 yards beyond the previous spot AND a 5 yard tack on.

Offline Curious

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »
Our season starts on 8/17.  Our state association has not put out anything to suggest that "during the kick down" is being changed to "during the kick".  Has anyone heard anything different?
The NFHS web-site and Power Point haven't changed their wording (yet); but we (in Michigan) have been advised that the interpretation is "during the kick" (which means a whole lot more sense...).

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 12:45:32 PM »
What about an illegal scrimmage kick? Is this treated the same?

Punter scrambles, drops the ball, it bounces on the ground 3 times, he kicks the bouncing ball. Flag, illegal kick.

The return team recovers the ball 20 yards downfield and returns for 30 yards. Can we tack on the 15 yards as this is part of the 'free kick down'?

I would think that something like illegal formation kicking team is intended to be a 5-yard tack on, so we don't re-kick. This is not a penalty during the kick, but during the 'free kick down'.


Offline FLAHL

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 12:56:50 PM »
What about an illegal scrimmage kick? Is this treated the same?


KWH's post copied and pasted from another thread on this subject:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul until the end of the kick, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.
If R scores a Touchdown, the succeeding spot is the TRY, UNLESS the criteria of 8-2-3 has been met ( ie; the K foul occurred after the final change of possession);
If 8-2-3 applies, R may choose enforcement of the penalty on the TRY or the Subsequent Kickoff.

So... all the options from 2017 are still intact, however, in addition, we can now offer up the "tack-on option" as well.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 12:59:32 PM by FLAHL »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 01:02:47 PM »
To answer your question, no. A ball that is illegally kicked retains the status it was in before the player kicked it. In this situation the status was a fumble. B has options. They can take the result of the play or we can go back to the spot of the foul, because the spot of foul was behind the basic spot, which would be previous spot, mark off 15yds and replay the down.

In other words, this was not a kick, free, scrimmage, or otherwise.
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« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 01:08:55 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 06:14:55 PM »
KWH's post copied and pasted from another thread on this subject:

For 10-4-2c to be in effect the following must occur:
1) K must legally kick the football, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement that the ball cross any line, in fact, in NFHS, it could be blocked for negative yardage) AND,
2) K must commit ANY live ball foul until the end of the kick, (this is not the NCAA rule so there is no requirement of when or even where the K foul occurs), AND
3) K is NOT next to put the ball in play!
If all three of these criteria are met,  the offended team, R, may choose succeeding spot enforcement with one exception, if R scores a Touchdown.
If R scores a Touchdown, the succeeding spot is the TRY, UNLESS the criteria of 8-2-3 has been met ( ie; the K foul occurred after the final change of possession);
If 8-2-3 applies, R may choose enforcement of the penalty on the TRY or the Subsequent Kickoff.

So... all the options from 2017 are still intact, however, in addition, we can now offer up the "tack-on option" as well.

Isn't kick catching interference exempted from the "ANY live ball foul"

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 07:03:18 AM »
To answer your question, no. A ball that is illegally kicked retains the status it was in before the player kicked it.

Yes, I understand that an illegal kick retains the status it was before the player kicked it (i.e. most likely a fumble).

But it was still a KICK. Is there a definition of what a 'free kick down' is? Does there have to be an action of a leg hitting a ball (a KICK) or the ball in a KICK STATUS?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2018, 07:05:04 AM »
Isn't kick catching interference exempted from the "ANY live ball foul"

KCI already has its own tack-on provision.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2018, 08:03:50 AM »
Yes, I understand that an illegal kick retains the status it was before the player kicked it (i.e. most likely a fumble).

But it was still a KICK. Is there a definition of what a 'free kick down' is? Does there have to be an action of a leg hitting a ball (a KICK) or the ball in a KICK STATUS?

No it's not a kick. A has kicked a fumble. I understand the difficulty in discerning the difference, but for penalty enforcement, it is necessary to distinguish between a down in which the ball is legally kicked and a player kicking the ball. In the play you posted, the down was a normal scrimmage down, not a scrimmage kick, because A never legally kicked the ball. He kicked a fumble, and so the kicking penalty exception does not apply.

Let's look at it this way. If K had kicked the ball legally, and then, while the ball was loose on the ground, he kicked it again, and the ball went through R's endzone, then the exception would apply. R could take the 15yd penalty from the previous spot, or take the ball at the 20 b/c of the touchback and add on a 15yd penatly. The exception would apply in this situation because the ball was legally kicked before it was illegally kicked..

Also, let me point out that the exception applies for scrimmage kicks as well as free kicks....

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2018, 09:13:24 AM »
No it's not a kick. A has kicked a fumble. I understand the difficulty in discerning the difference, but for penalty enforcement, it is necessary to distinguish between a down in which the ball is legally kicked and a player kicking the ball.

For many (most) of us, rules related to the "Kicking game" cause the most consternation.  Rule 6 (all of it) usually requires slow, repeated, uninterrupted reading as does 2-24-1 through 10. (2-24-2 is worthy of tattooing on, or carving into, the forearm).  Thoroughly understanding 9-7-1 through 4 is well worth the effort.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:15:29 AM by AlUpstateNY »