Author Topic: Are you stricter on Finals?  (Read 959 times)

Offline lha1986

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Are you stricter on Finals?
« on: July 24, 2018, 04:11:25 PM »
So, an important question, for those who officiate finals, Bowls and other games of this heightened importance.

Are you stricter in enforcing the rules, or do you apply the rules the same as any other game?

For example, if for a Final, you have two teams with a history of bad blood, and a player of one team go over the board with a push (like pushing the opponent on the back while putting the foot down so he would fall, 3 seconds after the play was over), would you eject and be strict on controlling the mood of the game, or do you ignore the fact that it's a Final?

Thanks.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2018, 04:46:47 PM »
A foul on the first play of the game is a foul on the last play of the game.  Regular game or finals make no difference. 

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2018, 06:14:38 PM »
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard a coach scream “You can’t make that call in this game!”

My answer is: “Coach, I’m in this game because I will make that call.”

Offline lha1986

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2018, 07:28:25 PM »
Ok. That's awesome.

Based on that, I'd like to ask your opinion on a play.



The play after 24:20 +-, where a player is ejected from the game. Would you eject him as well?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 07:33:38 PM by lha1986 »

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 02:55:16 AM »
No I wouldn't, the flag was warranted but not an ejection from what I see.

What on earth is the umpire doing behind the WH when he's signalling the penalties?

Online Kalle

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 03:24:24 AM »
Unless the game has already been bad, I wouldn't eject either. Just the 15 yards is the right call here.

Online bossman72

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 08:51:02 AM »
To your first question: A foul in Week 1 is a foul in the final.  Standards must be consistent or players won't know what a foul is and what isn't.

For the play itself, this is not an ejection in Week 1.

What is the foul for?  Did someone punch?  I can't tell what he did other than pancake the defender.

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 09:00:48 AM »
On the far sideline, after the play, someone sticks out a leg

Offline lha1986

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 02:11:18 PM »
Great. Thanks for your answers. I got back to the officials who were in the game and asked them why they opted for the ejection.

They asked me to give you the context, to see if that would change your opinion on the ejection, or if, for you, it's always the same:

1- Brazilian players are not disciplined, the "soccer culture" of flopping and fighting for nothing has spread to almost all other sports.

2- They thought that they had to make a statement, otherwise the other team would retaliate hard, because they have a history of doing that.

3- Our players aren't as technical as American players, who are born with the football in their hands. They try to take up a game frequently by intimidating and using this kind of behavior to get into the opponents' minds, so they thought it'd be best to nip it in the bud.

Even though they were in the finals, that doesn't mean they are technically good. If you watch the game, you'll see some good plays here and there, the best of them from Cody, the American guy in black. We are improving, but soccer culture of flopping and fighting is too infectious, so we're trying to educate the players to become athletes, and that's why they opted for the ejection.

I thank you all for your inputs, it helps a lot, and I'm more of a lurker, but your opinion is really important to us.

Offline clearwall

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 02:38:14 PM »
They ejected the player that got tripped after the play?? Eeks. No

The first flag, was that a holding call? Gotta let that go, it was 7 yards away and the play was already dead. Not to mention the defender just fell down. Offensive player didnt commit a foul on that one.

The U standing behind the R...was that a translation thing, maybe? Does the R not speak Portuguese and the U was telling him what to say?

Offline lha1986

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2018, 04:55:37 PM »
No, they ejected the player who tripped the other.

Also, the BJ was behind the R to help him remember all number and penalties, since there were more than 2.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2018, 10:13:02 PM »
No, they ejected the player who tripped the other.

Also, the BJ was behind the R to help him remember all number and penalties, since there were more than 2.

In the absence of crew comm radios, a much better technique would be for the ‘supporting’ official to stand in front of the R some 5 to 7 yards, and slightly off to the side, to offer the number reminders, when/if needed.

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 02:18:12 AM »
No the context wouldn't change my thoughts on the ejection, if anything they reinforce the existing ones.

If they have a culture of soccer and 'flopping' all that an unnecessary ejection does is to encourage them to do it more.  If they flop they need to find out that THEY are penalised.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 08:24:15 AM »
As a game official, the best we can do is render an honest, impartial judgment of what we actually observe in real time, based on a thorough and knowledgeable understanding of whatever potential rule infraction we've put ourselves in the best (appropriate) position to observe.

Each, and every decision, is subject to a wide variety of "second guessing", either instantly or after review of hind sight, not available to assist the original judgment (which depending on level may be available to review, and possibly alter, the initial conclusion).  Consistency in assessing a situation is a critical objective, but as no two football plays have EVER been EXACTLY alike, each deserves it's unique decision based on what is actually observed and it's compliance/non-compliance with whatever rule (at the appropriate level) being assessed.

"One size doesn't (nor likely EVER will) fit all similar circumstances PERFECTLY",  although a consistently thorough understanding of the rule involved and being in the proper position to best observe the action being assessed are vital to rendering the best assessment and conclusion.

Once "the call" is made, it's over (depending on level and circumstance, subject to potential adjustment) and the primary benefit subsequent, and appropriate review, reflection and consideration provides is helpful and constructive in helping to insure the quality of SUBSEQUENT calls.   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 08:30:08 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2018, 03:45:00 PM »
I'm not sure if you are sending our responses back to the officials.  If so, I just wanted to offer some advice.  When relaying the ball from official to official it should be underhanded tossed.  I seen several times where they threw the ball overhanded.  Then there was one time where the ball was on the ground and the umpire kicked the ball to the other official as it was on the ground.  I'm not trying to knock those guys because they are learning the game so I just wanted to provide my 2 cents.

Offline lha1986

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2018, 09:29:30 PM »
I'm not sure if you are sending our responses back to the officials.  If so, I just wanted to offer some advice.  When relaying the ball from official to official it should be underhanded tossed.  I seen several times where they threw the ball overhanded.  Then there was one time where the ball was on the ground and the umpire kicked the ball to the other official as it was on the ground.  I'm not trying to knock those guys because they are learning the game so I just wanted to provide my 2 cents.

I'm relaying everything, and I actually analysed the full game, including the overhead tosses and the kick on the ball. Thanks a million.

In the absence of crew comm radios, a much better technique would be for the ‘supporting’ official to stand in front of the R some 5 to 7 yards, and slightly off to the side, to offer the number reminders, when/if needed.


Thanks for your opinion.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 08:21:07 AM »
A foul on the first play of the game is a foul on the last play of the game.  Regular game or finals make no difference.

I disagree.

In a perfect world, this is a feel-good quote that makes sense. But in the real world, a good official looks at the context of the play.

If a player is constantly harassing another player, trying to instigate a fight, and we tell him to 'knock it off' a couple of times - then maybe this little bump deserves an ejection. Or maybe he was flagged previously. If this is the first time, then I wouldn't eject.

Same as a major offensive hold/take-down on the line. 4th and 1 on a critical run play, I'd call this every time. Last play of the game where the losing team is losing by more than 8, why call it? I'd only call unsportsmanlike, safety or intent-to-injure type penalties in these situations.


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2018, 09:24:37 AM »
IMHO, when the finals arrive you are dealing with two teams who :

(1) Have honed their timing and skills to prevent the false starts, illegal motion and encroachment fouls we may have witnessed early in the season.

(2) Our state championships are between teams from different regions and usually haven't faced each other before, which removes the "bad blood" that could exist.

(3) The players are focused on playing hard and winning the gold ball, not playing "with a chip on their shoulder" ,looking for someone to punish.

IMHO, there are usually less flags in the finals because there are less fouls.

Online bossman72

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2018, 11:11:52 AM »
I disagree.

In a perfect world, this is a feel-good quote that makes sense. But in the real world, a good official looks at the context of the play.

If a player is constantly harassing another player, trying to instigate a fight, and we tell him to 'knock it off' a couple of times - then maybe this little bump deserves an ejection. Or maybe he was flagged previously. If this is the first time, then I wouldn't eject.

Same as a major offensive hold/take-down on the line. 4th and 1 on a critical run play, I'd call this every time. Last play of the game where the losing team is losing by more than 8, why call it? I'd only call unsportsmanlike, safety or intent-to-injure type penalties in these situations.



I think everyone is on the same page with you.  I think the point is that if you officiate by this standard Week 1, don't change it for the finals, and if you set a standard early in the game, don't pucker later because the score might be close.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Are you stricter on Finals?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2018, 02:37:20 PM »
I disagree.

In a perfect world, this is a feel-good quote that makes sense. But in the real world, a good official looks at the context of the play.

If a player is constantly harassing another player, trying to instigate a fight, and we tell him to 'knock it off' a couple of times - then maybe this little bump deserves an ejection. Or maybe he was flagged previously. If this is the first time, then I wouldn't eject.

Same as a major offensive hold/take-down on the line. 4th and 1 on a critical run play, I'd call this every time. Last play of the game where the losing team is losing by more than 8, why call it? I'd only call unsportsmanlike, safety or intent-to-injure type penalties in these situations.

I'm just speaking to the general question on "Are you stricter in the finals?"   Being a finals game is not going to cause me to "shrink the strike zone or open up the strike zone".  Now certainly if the score is out of hand, let's get the game over with and that's no change from how I do it in week 1 or the finals.  But, zero to zero on the scoreboard, my judgement will be the same from play one till the final horn.  As for your harassing scenario, I expect you are using the same techniques in week 1 of the season correct?  You're not getting stricter just for the finals.