Clock question

[HLTN]

I want to make sure I got this correct.   
4th down and clock is running.  K punts and there is a short return.  K is guilty of an illegal formation.   R elects to enforce the penalty from the previous spot. 
Does the clock start on the ready or on the snap?

[CalhounLJ]

It starts on the ready. That is determined by the action that caused the clock to stop on the play in which the penalty occurred. In this case, unless the runner ended the play by running OOB, the action that caused the clock to stop was the runner being downed in the field of play.


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[HLTN]

Thanks!

[PABJNR]

If there is less than 2 in the half R get a choice to start the clock on the snap.


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[Ralph Damren]

If there is less than 2 in the half R get a choice to start the clock on the snap.


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No, the choice is a "one-way street". The opponents of the fouling team can ask to have a RFP clock to start on the snap, but not reverse.

[PABJNR]

Ralph read the play again, unless I am reading it wrong K was the team that fouled or am I missing something?


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[ncwingman]

I don't disagree that there is a case book play of pretty much a similar play (3.4.2 Situation D) and it states the clock starts on the ready (and yes, R does have the option of the snap since 3.4.2 D specifies that it was under 2 minutes).

However, without the foul, the clock stops at the end of the down because we're awarding a new series to R, correct? Without penalty administration, the clock would start on the snap. Is the ball becoming dead in bounds overshadowing the new series being awarded? Where is the rule support for that?

[PABJNR]

Refer to case book 3.4.2 situation D, pretty much the play we are discussing. Essentially the penalty and election to relics prevents a new series from being rewarded, so the status of the clock goes back to the action of the play, I.e inbounds, out of bounds etc.


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[CalhounLJ]

I don't disagree that there is a case book play of pretty much a similar play (3.4.2 Situation D) and it states the clock starts on the ready (and yes, R does have the option of the snap since 3.4.2 D specifies that it was under 2 minutes).

However, without the foul, the clock stops at the end of the down because we're awarding a new series to R, correct? Without penalty administration, the clock would start on the snap. Is the ball becoming dead in bounds overshadowing the new series being awarded? Where is the rule support for that?

The clock was not stopped because a new series was awarded because a new series was never awarded. The clock was stopped because there was a penalty flag on the ground. True, if there had been no penalty flag on the ground, the clock would have been stopped so that a new series could have been awarded to R.


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[CalhounLJ]

a

[ncwingman]

So I was ready to ask a follow up, but I think I managed to answer my own question by finding a different.... quirk.... in the rules.

I was going to ask, "A35 runs for a TD, but A65 holds on the play -- clock starts on the snap because TD, except TD didn't happen due to foul (same as new series (not) being awarded for R after the punt)" -- that's different, but why?

I think I found the answer in 3-4-4 that lists situations where the clock should be stopped. The clock should be stopped due to a score or touchback or when the down ends following a foul -- but "B or R awarded a new series" is not actually listed as a reason why the clock should be stopped. Of course, "if the clock was stopped because ... B or R is awarded a new series" IS listed in 3-4-3 as a reason to start on the snap, but there's no actual rule support that we should have stopped it in the first place?

[CalhounLJ]

Ralph does a great job explaining the difference between a major and minor clock stoppage and how to apply the two. Maybe he’ll jump in and give us a refresher.


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[Ralph Damren]

Rule 3-4-3d covers this. The goal line is considered like the sideline for clock stoppage. Hope that helps.

[ncwingman]

Rule 3-4-3d covers this. The goal line is considered like the sideline for clock stoppage. Hope that helps.

But then why doesn't 3-4-3b kick in after the punt play?

I assume the major/minor clock stoppages are the difference between 3-4-4 reasons and 3-5-7 reasons (although 3-4-4b is "because of 3-5-7 reasons")...

[CalhounLJ]

3-4-3b doesn't apply because of 5-1-2a&b - a new series is only awarded after considering the effect of any act during the down, except a nonplayer or USC foul. And also 3-4-2b Note 3: The action which caused the down to end did no also cause the clock to be stopped. The clock never stops simply because a runner is downed inbounds.

In the TD play you mentioned, we would start the clock on the snap following the penalty because of 3-4-3d - the ball became dead behind a goal line.