Author Topic: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play  (Read 846 times)

Offline BG5

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Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« on: October 25, 2018, 07:42:14 PM »
Gents,

This site continues to be one of the best resources an official can have.  We had a play last week that had us thinking.  2 - point conversion where it was a "swinging gate" type play.  Six guys on the line of scrimmage that line up almost to the sideline on the left.  They then had a center (#53) and two WR who line up off the ball on the right.  Please see the diagram below to help visualize this play.  A couple of questions on this play.

1.  They need at least 5 guys numbered 50-79 on the line correct?
2.  Since the center is # 53 he is not eligible to catch a pass correct?
3.  If the center was # 7 he would be an eligible to catch a pass in this formation? 
4.  Anything else I need to know about numbering?



                xxxxxx               x
   
                                                                             wr         wr
                                       holder

                                       kicker

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 08:39:35 PM »
Gents,

This site continues to be one of the best resources an official can have.  We had a play last week that had us thinking.  2 - point conversion where it was a "swinging gate" type play.  Six guys on the line of scrimmage that line up almost to the sideline on the left.  They then had a center (#53) and two WR who line up off the ball on the right.  Please see the diagram below to help visualize this play.  A couple of questions on this play.

1.  They need at least 5 guys numbered 50-79 on the line correct?
2.  Since the center is # 53 he is not eligible to catch a pass correct?
3.  If the center was # 7 he would be an eligible to catch a pass in this formation? 
4.  Anything else I need to know about numbering?



                xxxxxx               x
   
                                                                             wr         wr
                                       holder

                                       kicker

1.  No, as this is a try which uses the same exceptions as on 4th down if a kicker and holder are in position.  2-14-2a.

2.  Correct.

3.  Correct.

4.  The difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down verses 4th down under the numbering exception.


Offline Ump33

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2018, 08:07:05 AM »
Case Book 7.2.5 D provides good information on player eligibility during Try's and 4th down plays.

7.2.5 D ... With fourth and 6 from the K20, Team K lines up with A21 as the left end; A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86 in the traditional five tackle-guard-center-guard-tackle spots; and A11 on the right end. All are on the line of scrimmage. Players A10, A20 and A5 are in the backfield with A79 lined up in the deep, position as a potential kicker. A25 places his hand on the ball. Prior to the snap,
(a) A20 shifts to the line of scrimmage on the right of A86 and left of A11 and sets for one second before the ball is snapped; or
(b) A11 steps back off of the line and A20 shifts to replace him as the end, where both are set for a second before the ball is snapped. Who are the eligible receivers prior to the ball being touched by B?
RULING: Once A25 placed his hands on the ball, all players in between the ends (A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86) become ineligible and remain ineligible throughout the down. In (a), once A20 assumed a position on the line of scrimmage, A20 became ineligible as he was covered up by A11. A79 is ineligible by number. Only A21, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible on the play. In (b), because A11 stepped back off of the line first, A20 becomes eligible as he would be the end. A21, A20, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible.
COMMENT: When A is in scrimmage-kick formation, it does not have to kick and may kick when it is not in this formation.  [2-14-2, 2-32-9, 2-39, 7-2-5b(2), 7-5-6]
 

Offline BG5

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2018, 11:12:06 AM »
Gentlemen,

Just want to confirm that I understand this correctly.

1.  On 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down the offense must have at least 5 players on the line numbered 50-79 if its not a scrimmage kick.

2.  On a scrimmage kick formation during 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down the kicking team must have at least 4 players on he line numbered 50-79.  The snapper is allowed to be numbered 1-49 0r 80-99.

3.  If the snapper is numbered 50-79 he is ineligible no matter where he lines up even if he were on the end of the line

4.  On a scimmage kick formation during 4th down there is an exception and you no longer need 4 players numbered 50-79

Does that all sound correct.  If so I feel I understand it now.  I also realize that any of these players may catch the ball if B touches it first.

Offline BG5

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2018, 11:19:07 AM »
On more thing

5.  A player numbered 50-79 can never legally catch a pass unless its touched by B first. 

6.  A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 can legally catch a pass anytime

Offline CK51

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2018, 11:22:49 AM »
6.  A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 can legally catch a pass anytime
Not if they are ineligible by position

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 11:42:07 AM »

2.  On a scrimmage kick formation during 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down the kicking team must have at least 4 players on he line numbered 50-79.  The snapper is allowed to be numbered 1-49 0r 80-99.


I've never seen this happen, but we always cover it in pregame because someday it will.  If time is running out in the first half or 4th quarter, I suspect a team that's trying to kick a FG will trot out their "regular" FG team no matter what down it is.  And if they have a FB or LB numbered in the 30s or 40s on the line, in addition to a snapper who is #15 (for example), then their formation is illegal.  I'd bet not one in ten coaches would know this difference exists on first, second, or third down.

Offline UmpHawk

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 12:55:25 PM »
On more thing

5.  A player numbered 50-79 can never legally catch a pass unless its touched by B first. 

6.  A player numbered 1-49 or 80-99 can legally catch a pass anytime

On #6, they can legally catch a pass if they are in an eligible position. If they are "covered up", they are ineligible.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2018, 01:15:04 PM »
Gentlemen,

Just want to confirm that I understand this correctly.

1.  On 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down the offense must have at least 5 players on the line numbered 50-79 if its not a scrimmage kick.

2.  On a scrimmage kick formation during 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down the kicking team must have at least 4 players on he line numbered 50-79.  The snapper is allowed to be numbered 1-49 0r 80-99. and he must be between the ends.

3.  If the snapper is numbered 50-79 he is ineligible no matter where he lines up even if he were on the end of the line

4.  On a scimmage kick formation during 4th down there is an exception and you no longer need 4 players numbered 50-79

Does that all sound correct.  If so I feel I understand it now.  I also realize that any of these players may catch the ball if B touches it first.

Added one more requirement to your item #2

Offline BG5

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2018, 01:30:43 PM »
Ump 33,

So on 1st , 2nd, or 3rd down if the snapper is #7 he cannot be snapping on the end of the line and be an eligible receiver?  Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.  For a visual see the formation above and assume the snapper is # 7 on the right side.  He could not do this durind downs 1,2, and 3?

Offline Suudy

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2018, 01:57:52 PM »
Added one more requirement to your item #2
I know this is NFHS, but I want to post an example from a college game.  WSU came out on 1's and 10 with:



The snapper is #17.  In NFHS, this is an illegal formation?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2018, 02:05:56 PM »
I know this is NFHS, but I want to post an example from a college game.  WSU came out on 1's and 10 with:



The snapper is #17.  In NFHS, this is an illegal formation?
On a regular scrimmage formation, assuming there are 5 on the line numbered 50-79, this would be a legal formation. There is nothing in the book that states an eligible receiver cannot snap the ball. Assuming of course there is an additional player on the los who is out of sight of this picture.


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« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 02:25:02 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2018, 02:43:01 PM »
I don't think I've ever seen a Referee that far away from the QB prior to the snap.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2018, 03:09:36 PM »
Me either but if I understand college mechanics, thatís where he is supposed to be. Ball snappped from near hash, he stands at the numbers 12 yds deep.


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Offline Suudy

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2018, 03:39:29 PM »
On a regular scrimmage formation, assuming there are 5 on the line numbered 50-79, this would be a legal formation. There is nothing in the book that states an eligible receiver cannot snap the ball. Assuming of course there is an additional player on the los who is out of sight of this picture.
Doh!  You were talking scrimmage kick formations.  Nevermind.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2018, 03:48:51 PM »
Ump 33,

So on 1st , 2nd, or 3rd down if the snapper is #7 he cannot be snapping on the end of the line and be an eligible receiver?  Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.  For a visual see the formation above and assume the snapper is # 7 on the right side.  He could not do this during downs 1,2, and 3?

If on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down and the snapper is #7 and his in the game using the Number Exception, he must be between the ends and is an ineligible by position.  The seven players on the LOS could look something like this:
  88 76 65 55 7 64 82


If on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down and there are 5 players 50 - 79, snapper #7 may be on the end and he is eligible.
  88 76 65 55 64 52 7

7-2-5b Exception 1 ... On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under this exception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).

Offline markrischard

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2018, 08:18:30 AM »
In the photo above... I remind coach in pregame that we want this executed perfectly, as far as legal formations go. The "Left tackle" does not appear to be breaking the waist of the snapper.  The coach shouldn't be upset when he get an illegal formation call.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 10:23:51 AM »
By NFHS definition, this is not a scrimmage kick formation = no numbering exception allowed.

Offline markrischard

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Re: Numbering for Lineman and swinging gate play
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 12:08:08 PM »
Ralph, I don't think anyone implied the photo was a scrimmage kick formation. I was simply pointing out that the interior linemen, one in particular might not be on the line of scrimmage.