Author Topic: KOB - truth stranger than fiction  (Read 1101 times)

Offline ElvisLives

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KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« on: December 02, 2018, 04:44:03 PM »
I hear criticism of people that make up Ďdream plays,í as though the critics canít be bothered to think about things that just wonít ever happen.  I donít buy that.  Some dream plays really happen.

Kansas City at Oakland - yeah, I know, thatís NFL, and their rules are different, but the scenario could happen in NCAA, too.  KC free kicks to Oakland.  Ball is bounding near the sideline at the B-3, while receiver B19 is approaching the ball from the end zone.  B19 is expecting the ball to bounce out of bounds at the B-2, but it bounces up and toward the goal line.  B19 steps around the pylon (from the end zone side), and reaches down for the ball.  B19s right foot is out of bounds, and his left foot is in the end zone (heís kinda straddling the pylon) when he grasps the airborne ball while the ball is completely inside the boundary line, and over the field of play (very near the goal line, but no part of it breaking the plane of the goal line).

The covering official correctly sounds his whistle to stop action, since the loose ball touched something out of bounds.  Donít know if a flag was ever thrown, but the crew ruled a free kick out of bounds, and awarded the ball to Team B at the B-40.

I can only assume the ruling was correct for the NFL, but it would certainly be correct for NCAA (***excepting the succeeding spot - 35, for NCAA***).  Of course it is a foul (in NCAA), and a flag should be thrown.

Easy enough.

But, in reality, it wasnít so clear that the ball was totally over the field of play.  It may have actually been breaking the plane of the goal line (but never touching the ground in the end zone) when B19 grasped the ball.  That would make the ball dead beyond the defending teamís goal line, with impetus from the attacking teamís free kick.  That would be a touchback, Bís ball at the B-25.  Thatís a big difference.

In the first scenario, had there also been a foul by the receiving team, there would have been totally different penalty enforcement options.  So we have be sure about the location of the ball when it officially became dead.

Tricky play.  Gonna happen often?  Nope.  But it did happen.  Letís be prepared.

Robert

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 06:22:21 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Kalle

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 03:05:46 AM »
I hear criticism of people that make up Ďdream plays,í as though the critics canít be bothered to think about things that just wonít ever happen.  I donít buy that.  Some dream plays really happen.

I just quote those people the bowl game play "double forward pass or not" which was discussed as a "never gonna happen but what would you do" kinda play.

Offline CenTexZebra

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 12:33:58 PM »
Somewhat along these same lines. Team A onside kicks the ball. Ball rolls across the ground toward the sideline. Team B player reaches for the ball and touches the ball at the Team B 48 and the ball continues along the ground and goes OOB at the B 45. Is this considered a free kick OOB?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 08:29:33 PM »
Somewhat along these same lines. Team A onside kicks the ball. Ball rolls across the ground toward the sideline. Team B player reaches for the ball and touches the ball at the Team B 48 and the ball continues along the ground and goes OOB at the B 45. Is this considered a free kick OOB?

Assuming the B player was inbounds, no.  The illegal KOB rule only applies to free kicks that are untouched by inbounds players of the receiving team before it goes out of bounds.

Robert

Offline Morningrise

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 09:40:03 AM »
Somewhat along these same lines. Team A onside kicks the ball. Ball rolls across the ground toward the sideline. Team B player reaches for the ball and touches the ball at the Team B 48 and the ball continues along the ground and goes OOB at the B 45. Is this considered a free kick OOB?

Pedantic answer: Yes, it is a free kick that has gone out of bounds. Practical answer: No, it's not a FOUL for a free kick out of bounds, because kicking it out of bounds is legal if the receiving team touches it BEFORE it goes out of bounds.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 10:11:59 AM »
In NFHS, back in 2000 we added a case play that stated if the kick had yet to break the sideline plane when touched by OOB R player, it would be a simple R's ball at that spot. Easy to officiate as, even with a 5 man crew, there are 2 officials on each sideline. It seemed fair not to penalize K ,whose kick was inbounds until touched by OOB R. Opinions?

Offline TxBJ

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 11:22:12 AM »
In NFHS, back in 2000 we added a case play that stated if the kick had yet to break the sideline plane when touched by OOB R player, it would be a simple R's ball at that spot. Easy to officiate as, even with a 5 man crew, there are 2 officials on each sideline. It seemed fair not to penalize K ,whose kick was inbounds until touched by OOB R. Opinions?
That would create another controversy waiting to happen. Keep it simple.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 03:01:45 PM »
In NFHS, back in 2000 we added a case play that stated if the kick had yet to break the sideline plane when touched by OOB R player, it would be a simple R's ball at that spot. Easy to officiate as, even with a 5 man crew, there are 2 officials on each sideline. It seemed fair not to penalize K ,whose kick was inbounds until touched by OOB R. Opinions?

This would not be possible for NCAA, because the sideline is never treated as a plane.  I don't have any angst over an OB player touching a loose free kick, making it an illegal KOB.  I have it on good authority that the player in KC game was told something like "you did a smart thing, even if you didn't know it." 

Redding fixed the only issue I had with the KOB rule many years ago.  Before he changed the rule, a B player could secure the ball while airborne and then land OB, and that would be an illegal KOB.  Redding changed the rules regarding airborne players, and, if such players left the ground inbounds, then he stays inbounds while in flight.  So, if he touches the ball while airborne (from inbounds), the ball has been legally and officially touched inbounds by B (regardless if the ball itself is over the field of play or over territory outside the sideline).  Not an illegal KOB, any more.

We definitely don't need to open a can of dead worms by treating the sideline as a plane, even just for this situation.

Robert

Offline bossman72

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 10:00:00 PM »
This would not be possible for NCAA, because the sideline is never treated as a plane.  I don't have any angst over an OB player touching a loose free kick, making it an illegal KOB.  I have it on good authority that the player in KC game was told something like "you did a smart thing, even if you didn't know it." 

Redding fixed the only issue I had with the KOB rule many years ago.  Before he changed the rule, a B player could secure the ball while airborne and then land OB, and that would be an illegal KOB.  Redding changed the rules regarding airborne players, and, if such players left the ground inbounds, then he stays inbounds while in flight.  So, if he touches the ball while airborne (from inbounds), the ball has been legally and officially touched inbounds by B (regardless if the ball itself is over the field of play or over territory outside the sideline).  Not an illegal KOB, any more.

We definitely don't need to open a can of dead worms by treating the sideline as a plane, even just for this situation.

Robert

To back up Ralph's case book play, I proposed a rule change for this year to make the NFHS rule consistent with the case book.  I just added "It's not a foul unless the kick becomes OOB while on or above OOB territory."  This didn't change the definition of in/out of bounds, but simply stated when a foul for KOB was to be called.  This backed up the case book play.

So, it wouldn't be too hard to implement.  It's not like it's the only thing in the NCAA rule book that ignores all football rule logic (see kicks driven immediately into the ground rule).

Offline Bob M.

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Re: KOB - truth stranger than fiction
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 07:46:32 PM »
This would not be possible for NCAA, because the sideline is never treated as a plane.  I don't have any angst over an OB player touching a loose free kick, making it an illegal KOB.  I have it on good authority that the player in KC game was told something like "you did a smart thing, even if you didn't know it." 

Redding fixed the only issue I had with the KOB rule many years ago.  Before he changed the rule, a B player could secure the ball while airborne and then land OB, and that would be an illegal KOB.  Redding changed the rules regarding airborne players, and, if such players left the ground inbounds, then he stays inbounds while in flight.  So, if he touches the ball while airborne (from inbounds), the ball has been legally and officially touched inbounds by B (regardless if the ball itself is over the field of play or over territory outside the sideline).  Not an illegal KOB, any more.

We definitely don't need to open a can of dead worms by treating the sideline as a plane, even just for this situation.
Robert
REPLY: The sideline was never treated as a plane in NFHS either...at least until this rule change that Ralph cited was implemented. Thankfully, the rule has since reverted to what it had been previously. However, The Federation added a rule several years back that made it an illegal participation foul to intentionally go OOB and then interfere with play in any way. Hence, a receiver could not step OOB and then reach back into the field and touch a free kick in an attempt to create a free kick OOB.
Bob M.