Author Topic: Suggestion Box  (Read 3493 times)

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 08:38:31 PM »
1.  KOs:  Can make a fair catch and get the ball at the 20.
2.  QB from Shot gun:  No.
3.  Outside T/B:  Leave as is.  It may be easy with 6 or 7 man crews, but not with 4 or 5.
4.  Fouls behind los:  No.  Leave as is.
5. 40 Sec Clock:  Not nationwide, but by state adoption only.
6.  5 Backs:  Yes.
7.  Ask capt or coach:  As others have said, we do that already.

Generally agree with the above:
1. Kick offs: Let the recent adjustments sink in, a while.
2. QB  from Shot gun: No, he can always take a knee, a fair price for wanting/choosing to  kill a play. Avoid new "arguments".
3. Outside the tackle box: NO, it would deprive the defense of reward for making a great play and doing their job.
4. Fouls behind the LOS: Leave as is, otherwise motivates the Offense to foul when really being forced to (deep) retreat.
5. 40 sec. clock: NO, "WE" have all the control necessary to regulate excessive wasted time, when "we" decide to exert it.
6. 5 backs: No big deal
7. Involve coach: Why not allow Capt. to "consult" with Coach, "We" can manage that & STILL value the Capt.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2019, 06:51:01 AM »
1.  What can we do to make free kicks safer?  Without completely removing it not much IMHO. Always higher potential for injury when 11 defenders are approaching the ball carrier at speed.
2.  Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun? No
3.  No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS?  Yes
4.  A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement? Yes, although I'd stick with the spot of the foul if we ruled a "flagrant foul/takedown".
5.  40 " clock? No
6.  Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen ? Yes
7.  Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance?  Yes
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:42:12 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Morningrise

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2019, 08:04:56 AM »
Even the 40" clock  :)? I understand that when adopted by the NCAA in 2007, the MIAA chose not to use it. I started under NCAA back in Connecticut in 1969 for two years. Connecticut was a NCAA state until 1979. Moving to Maine, I didn't find learning the NFHS code too challenging - there was (and is today) fewer exceptions that are needed to grasp. I've several friends that have moved to the college level and tell me that learning the difference was much more challenging then  learning the NFHS at the start. If you are a white hat, the biggest challenge will be in penalty enforcement for, as of a few years ago, NCAA had 70+ exceptions while NFHS had 18. If you are not refereeing, you may wish to focus on the differences that deal with your coverages. Feel free to PM me if I can help.

You are correct that MA never abandoned the 25-second play clock. And the number of MA schools with visible play clocks is roughly 0%, and the number willing to pay for PCOs is somehow even less.

And yet, even though the burden would fall entirely on a back judge who definitely does not own a watch with two separate countdown settings, I actually DO like the idea of a 40-second play clock. White hats around here don't like to throw DOG flags if they can avoid it, so if the QB is over chatting with the coach, the WH will slow the RFP by a few seconds... and then coaches get used to the extra time and they stretch their QB chats even longer... It's just gradually gotten slower over the years, and now when it's a late-game situation and you start giving the RFP on time, it takes the whole offense by surprise and none of the kids or coaches know how to call and run a play that quickly.

Switching to a 40-second play clock would eliminate those bad habits - both the coaches' and the WHs' bad habits. This way, sympathetic WHs can't give both teams an extra couple seconds in the first three quarters, only to jolt the teams in the 4th into a faster rhythm that they're not accustomed to. And coaches will have to learn how to run an offense faster than they're used to. Maybe the QB can't run all the way over to the sideline after every single play anymore.


Offline FLAHL

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2019, 08:27:14 AM »
Maybe the QB can't run all the way over to the sideline after every single play anymore.

I'll never understand why coaches do this.  Do they think having their QB run an extra 2 miles during the game is NOT going to take a toll by the 4th quarter?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2019, 08:39:11 AM »
It seems to me the simple correction would be to educate and convince the WH to be consistent with his RFP. The effort to do this may be difficult, but maybe less difficult than retraining him to correctly administer the new rule. In fact Iíll say that if he canít correct the first, he canít handle the second.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2019, 08:40:48 AM »
I'll never understand why coaches do this.  Do they think having their QB run an extra 2 miles during the game is NOT going to take a toll by the 4th quarter?
Whether they do so or not is of no consequence to me. I blow the RFP when the ballistic spotted and my guys are in position.


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Offline Morningrise

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2019, 09:04:38 AM »
And now for the non-flippant version of my suggestions:

1.  What can we do to make free kicks safer?

Given a choice between modifying kickoffs and eliminating them entirely, I would choose modifying them as the lesser of two unfortunate options.

My preferred choice:

What makes kickoffs more dangerous than punts? The collisions with running starts. So, let's force R to line up similarly to a punt play. Mandate 7 players within five yards of their restraining line (or whatever it's called, sorry, I'm new at this NFHS stuff) and an additional 2 players within fifteen yards. Allow only 2 deep players. Result: kickoff return coverage involves retreating and THEN blocking, rather than getting a full head of steam while ALSO letting K get a full head of steam. Only the return man and one lead blocker get to start off deep.

Alternate choice:

The Schiano rule. I think Schiano recommended 4th and 15. That sounds a tad too easy, though. I would do 4th and 20. But then again, the precise yard line and distance to go should depend on research. We should decide we want a certain touchback rate and a certain onside kick recovery rate, say 15-20%, and use some empirical research to figure out where the "kickoff punt" should be snapped from and where the LTG should be to achieve those percentages. I know this ain't the NFL and statistics for aggregate onside-kick success percentages across 49 states is hard to come by, but it's important not to imbalance the game by choosing the wrong numbers. We want onside kick attempts to be rare and surprising in non-desperation situations. We want the game to be such that it makes more sense to kick the ball *to* the other team after scoring. I would support an NFHS guideline that, if the number of "kickoff punts" that are onside kick attempts ever goes above 10% of total kickoffs, that's proof that the onside kick is too appealing, too powerful, and the distance to go should be lengthened for the next season. The danger of calibrating these numbers incorrectly is one reason why this is my second choice, not my first.

2.  Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun?

I think this is a very minor issue. I don't think either answer is superior to the other. Spikes only happen in the two-minute drill with no timeouts, when Team A is sprinting into position. The location of the QB when he received the snap is pretty irrelevant. I would say, sure, let him spike it.

3.  No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS?

Not needed in HS. Reward the defense for making a good play. Legalizing IG would have the effect of giving coaches a stronger incentive to call rollout, mobile plays. There's already plenty of that; we don't need to tilt the scales even further in that direction.

4.  A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement?

Yes. 1st and 24 after a hold is excessive. You might think "but OLs will hold more if the penalty is less." But also consider, the harsh penalty leads to officials giving too much leeway because they don't want to call that many 13-18-yard penalties. Reduce the penalty and you'll increase the willingness to call those fouls. The two effects might offset each other.

5.  40 " clock?

Yes for reasons stated in an earlier comment. Stop the feedback loop of slower and slower RFPs and slower and slower coach-QB chats.

6.  Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen ?

YES. There is literally no drawback to this change.

7.  Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance?

YES. In general, whenever the rules fail to reflect the game's *universal practice,* one of those two should change. Here, nobody has any problem with coaches accepting penalties, so let's let the rules reflect reality.

Which reminds me, here are two additional cases where I'd like the rules to change to reflect reality:

Codify legal BBW on a shotgun snap. If the philosophy says that it's legal for a 3/4-point stance OL to cut a heads-up DL at the shotgun snap, then the rules should say so.

Moreover, I think such BBW should be legal even if the DL is lined up in a gap instead of heads-up. It's legal when the QB is under center, after all. NFHS likes to brag about having very few exceptions and special cases? Well, here's a special case they can fix to make simpler. A BBW at the snap, during an OL's initial charge, should be equally legal regardless of whether the QB is under center or in shotgun.

Secondly, although this one is nobody's high priority:

Allow encroaching players who are *lined up* in the NZ by accident to get moved back by the wing officials. After all, that is what we do in reality: "44, get back." Only if the snap is imminent do we blow and throw. I'm not gonna die on the "NCAA offside" hill - if B44 jumps into the NZ on a hard count, then sure, let's blow and throw. I'm just saying if B44 is in press coverage and he doesn't realize his WR is off the line and he wanders slowly into the NZ as he leaves the huddle, what the wing does in real life is tell him to get back, and therefore, the rules should agree with that.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2019, 09:28:17 AM »
Thanks, guys, for all of your opinions so far. I inadvertently left off an assumed popular one....

Would you favor to start clock on RFP on OOB plays (excepting the last 2 minutes of each half)?

.....unless I hear from you to the contrary . I'll assume you think it's a good idea  pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP (5-man crew)  ^TD

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2019, 09:40:36 AM »
Thanks, guys, for all of your opinions so far. I inadvertently left off an assumed popular one....

Would you favor to start clock on RFP on OOB plays (excepting the last 2 minutes of each half)? GREAT IDEA

.....unless I hear from you to the contrary . I'll assume you think it's a good idea  pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP (5-man crew)  ^TD



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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2019, 10:30:42 AM »

Switching to a 40-second play clock would eliminate those bad habits - both the coaches' and the WHs' bad habits. This way, sympathetic WHs can't give both teams an extra couple seconds in the first three quarters, only to jolt the teams in the 4th into a faster rhythm that they're not accustomed to. And coaches will have to learn how to run an offense faster than they're used to. Maybe the QB can't run all the way over to the sideline after every single play anymore.

In football, as in "general Life" ignoring (tolerating, condoning, excusing) bad habits has NEVER accomplished anything, but encouraging MORE bad habits. 

Consistently declaring the ball "RFP" when all of the game officials signal "ready", starting the 25 second countdown  (3-6-1) EXCEPT when some legitimate situation requiring delay is NECESSARY allows ample time.

NFHS 3-5-8-i has LONG dictated "For a one-minute delay (as in 60 seconds) between the 1st-2nd, 3rd-4th periods and following a try, successful FG, safety and prior to succeeding KO".  (There is no provision for a "Free-Kick review, discussion or clinic after each score and/or period change)

There is NO PROVISION for allowing the 25 second RFP to be extended to allow the QB to travel to/from the sideline between plays for personal instructions, and subsequently sharing them with his team.  That's part of the 25 second count.

A single Charged TO (3-5-3) "Shall not exceed 1 minute (as in 60 seconds)".

WE currently have the authority and necessary power to control and eliminate "Bad habits" when WE choose.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:32:57 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2019, 11:34:16 AM »
Thanks, guys, for your input. Your responses will be traveling with me to Indy and may provide me some ammo in voicing our opinion. I've gone through and "cheered" all of you (other than ones that would violate the "one week" rule) for your help. Thank you.

 tiphat: pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP tiphat:

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2019, 12:32:31 PM »
Thanks, guys, for all of your opinions so far. I inadvertently left off an assumed popular one....

Would you favor to start clock on RFP on OOB plays (excepting the last 2 minutes of each half)?

.....unless I hear from you to the contrary . I'll assume you think it's a good idea  pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP (5-man crew)  ^TD

Definitely in favor of this one!!

Offline prab

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2019, 12:53:46 PM »
Thanks, guys, for all of your opinions so far. I inadvertently left off an assumed popular one....

Would you favor to start clock on RFP on OOB plays (excepting the last 2 minutes of each half)?

.....unless I hear from you to the contrary . I'll assume you think it's a good idea  pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP (5-man crew)  ^TD

I would favor starting the clock on the RFP for all OOB plays or on no OOB plays.  I don't like the idea of having different timing rules for different parts of the game.  (I also still vote for Millard Fillmore for president, so I admit that I tend to be a bit behind the cutting edge of officiating innovation.)

Offline carol1995

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2019, 01:13:45 PM »
(other than ones that would violate the "one week" rule)

Not sure why there was a "one week" rule out there (must be standard for the software).  I changed that to one hour instead.  :thumbup

Offline SCline

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 03:41:08 PM »
I realize I might have missed my opportunity here but:

Game clock on the RFP after an IW but both teams have the choice of it starting on the snap. This would negate the IW from unfairly affecting a team late in a half.

Have the so called tackle box for a grounding to conserve yardage be the top of numbers on both sides of the field. Sure it is unbalanced if the snap is on a hash but that seems fine for me since if the QB is able to scramble all the way to the top of the numbers they havenít made that great of a play.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2019, 04:04:26 PM »
Thanks, guys, for your input. Your responses will be traveling with me to Indy and may provide me some ammo in voicing our opinion. I've gone through and "cheered" all of you (other than ones that would violate the "one week" rule) for your help. Thank you.

 tiphat: pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP pHiNzuP tiphat:

Thanks for the cheer. I need all the help I can get..  :angel:

Offline BIG DON

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2019, 06:34:15 PM »
What can we do to make free kicks safer ? I would be in favor or Kicking team not moving until the Ball is Kicked
at one time I was in favor of letting the receiving team bring kick out of the end zone but now for safety reasons leave it Dead
Also Eliminate Offside kicks accept in the last 2-5 minutes of the 4th quarter and only if you are behind I have seen teams onside on every kickoff

Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun ? Yes

No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS ? Yes

A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement ? Yes

40 " clock ? Let me think about this No it is hard enough already to the  CO in my state to run the clock right, most of the time we have only one operator to run the whole scoreboard and its hard for them to keep up. Although this year I would say that in my games the 25 sec clock was run better then any other year.


Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen ? yes

Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance ? No preference already asking coaches most of the time.

Would like to see automatic 1st down brought back on DPI. Also have DPI Mirror NCAA Rules

Also just to save the heartache All PF Automatic first Down
and Breaking the Huddle with 12 as a foul


What are the feeling on restraining fouls by the defense become live ball fouls unless the defender has a unimpeded shot then its a dead ball foul
do or do not there is no try

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2019, 07:04:34 AM »
I'm really tired of the thought that the NFHS needs to rewrite rules for people who get their rules knowledge by watching games on t.v.
At the same time that the Fed is churning out a media narrative about fan and unsporting behavior causing a shortage of officials, surely they can see the incongruity of passing rule changes that really require an INCREASE in the number of on-field officials.  Add in there are apparently some states that still don't require a minimum of five officials for high school level play, (note I didn't state just varsity), and I really don't see how a continued move to college or pro style rules sets can be adequately implemented.

For my entire career, I've always heard how h.s rules are made for the age player we are dealing with plus an alleged simplicity to enforce with few exceptions. Every year, the exceptions continue to expand, the tack on rule being the latest.

That being said, +4 in the backfield is certainly easier to officiate.  The tackle box is a bad idea.  I can live with the :40 sec clock as the BJ is going to keep it in the majority of games.  IG in the shotgun should remain.  We don't need to skew a rules change to more offense because a system was developed that keeps QB's from learning a fundamental element of the game.

Are we really seeing an increased risk of injury on h.s. level kickoffs?  We already disallow returns from kicks crossing the goal line and virtually eliminated the running start by K and recent rule changes at higher levels have almost killed the chance of a successful onside kick.  Is there actual data that supports such change?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2019, 09:57:33 AM »
I'm really tired of the thought that the NFHS needs to rewrite rules for people who get their rules knowledge by watching games on t.v.
AGREE 100%




Are we really seeing an increased risk of injury on h.s. level kickoffs?  We already disallow returns from kicks crossing the goal line and virtually eliminated the running start by K and recent rule changes at higher levels have almost killed the chance of a successful onside kick.  Is there actual data that supports such change?
WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE DATA ON THIS. IN 30 YEARS OF OFFICIATING I DONT REMEMBER EVER HAVING TO STOP THE GAME TO TEND TO A PLAYER AFTER A KICKOFF. I KNOW IT HAPPENS, BUT THATS OVER 300 CONSECUTIVE GAMES WITHOUT A RECORDED INJURY. I REALIZE NOT ALL INJURIES ARE INSTANTLY RECOGNIZABLE, BUT STILL....



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Offline ref4e

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2019, 09:46:06 PM »
What can we do to make free kicks safer ?     
Eliminate running start altogether...K players (except kicker) must be stationary until the kick

Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun ?       
No.   

No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS ?
Absolutely not.   Difficult to judge and penalizes good defense. (Yeah, I know what we hear from the sidelines every week, but don't dumb it down)

A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement ?    
This would make enforcement of A fouls behind the LOS more equitable, but unless an exception is made for holding by A in its own end zone, there's nothing to deter an A blocker from tackling a pass rusher if he gets beat.

40 " clock ?      
I can see the advantages in consistency of game pace, but this would be tough in a 3 or 4 man crew if no visible play clock unless R has one of those buzz box gizmos

Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen ?    
YES, PLEASE!!    This is long overdue.   Makes determining legal/illegal formation easier.    Having 10 on the field and 6 on the line is already a disadvantage, so why rub salt in the wound with a flag?

Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance ?   
No big deal, as this is what is already taking place.

AND HERE ARE A COUPLE I'D LIKE TO SEE:
1)  Define a player as out of bounds if he is airborne and his last status was out of bounds  (no IP for airborne player last touching out of bounds to catch pass...just an incomplete pass)

2)  Restore automatic first down for defensive pass interference

3)  Start clock on RFP on OOB plays (excepting the last 2 minutes of each half)?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 09:53:19 PM by ref4e »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2019, 07:48:27 AM »
Three items Iíd like to see:

1)  4 in backfield

2)  Define OOB airborne player

3)  Start clock on OOB *and* incomplete passes outside of 2 minutes both halves.

If thereís truly a push for 40Ē clock, make it a state adoption option.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2019, 08:15:51 AM »
What can we do to make free kicks safer?     
eliminate running start for K (except kicker), kick must be from center of the field with 5 players on each side of kicker with a player (other than the kicker) positioned:
- at the hash
- at the 9-yard mark
- between the hash and 9-yard mark
- between the 9-yard mark and sideline
- between the position of the ball and the hash
players cannot by closer that 1 yard to one another (except for a holder on a free kick)

Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun?       
yes (passer must have clear possession of ball prior to throwing forward into the ground)

No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS?
how about below the 9-yard marks and beyond the LOS in the field of play

A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement?     
yes with the exception of A (or B on a COP) in its own end zone

40" clock?     
yes

Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen?     
yes, no advantage gained

Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance?   
yes

Enjoy Indy.  Go to NCAA HOC (if you haven't already).

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2019, 11:09:17 AM »
I'm off to Windy Indy on Sunday (will arrive for the 2nd half of the Patriot game) and would welcome any suggestions\ opinions you may have of the following topics:

What can we do to make free kicks safer ? Prevent players from running until the kick is made.

Should we allow QB to spike from the shotgun ? Yes, this restriction seems anachronistic.

No IG if QB outside tackle box & pass goes over LOS ?
Yes, tackle box should coincide with the free-blocking zone and extend indefinitely backwards.
A fouls behind LOS = previous spot enforcement ?
Yes, this would prevent any 1st and 23 situations, or the defense not being punished on an illegal tackle for loss.
40 " clock ?
Yes, this will speed up the game, and rely on an objective criterion (ball becoming) dead, not on a white hat's subjective decision to blow the whistle. CO, MI, IN, and other states have adopted or experiment with a 40-second play clock for a reason, so this is not something unfeasible to implement at the HS level.
Foul for 5 backs , not 6 linesmen ?
Yes, this would simplify counting.
Ask EITHER captain or coach on penalty acceptance ?
Yes, this would make the rule more realistic.
Your suggestions or opinions will help me defend or rebut potential rule changes. Thanks in advance....

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: : :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

I would also suggest making DPI, personal fouls, and unsportsmanlike conduct automatic 1st downs, if committed by the defense and not in conflict with other rules. This would punish the strategic use of DPI to prevent a score, a defender acting dumb after a sack or key tackle for loss, or an illegal tackle for loss (dragging a player in the backfield down by the facemask).

Offline scrounge

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2019, 11:28:21 AM »
Oh, that reminds me of another one. While like many, I also think that DPI should have an automatic 1st down, if the will to do so isn't there, can we at least exempt DPI from going half the distance?

This would mitigate what I consider one of the greatest inequities in the current rule, one which I've seen in person in my games at least twice and that played a big part in one of the state championship games here in OH this past year.

Situation: 4th and goal from the 12, 5 mins left in game, A is losing by 4 points. Slot receiver breaks away for what would be a wide open catch - but DB recognizes it and grabs him. He didn't tackle him or anything, not enough to rise to the level of calling intentional DPI, but interfered in a very strategic way nonetheless. So instead of 1st down or at least 4th and goal from the 1 or 2, it's 4th and goal from the 6. Of course they go for it, but gain 5 yards when they needed 6. So a very wise penalty indeed.

Simply exempting DPI from the half the distance provision, stopping at the 1 or 2, would mitigate the use of the strategic DPI deep in the red zone.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Suggestion Box
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2019, 01:21:54 PM »
Scrounge, now you're changing Fundamentals though.