Author Topic: opinion on crew position  (Read 7078 times)

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Offline refjeff

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opinion on crew position
« on: April 10, 2019, 05:23:59 PM »
All else being equal, where do you want the stronger and more experienced official, back judge or on the wing? 

If it makes a difference, the other wing is solid.

Thanks for you thoughts.


Offline ElvisLives

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 06:20:16 PM »
No easy answer.
Generally, the better spot is B, because wing guys get the brunt of coaches' ire.  But, if you are a fixed crew with a new guy, he may need to get his feet wet ASAP.  If the weaker guy just needs more experience, and your crew can have the patience to let him grow with you, then he/you may be OK to put him at wing.  But, if he is not likely to get much stronger, then B may be better.
Another factor is his image.  Is he fit and athletic?  Is he less mobile, maybe not quite in as good of shape?  I'd rather have the more fit guy on the sideline, and teach the less fit guy to start deep (as B) and retreat immediately upon each snap, to give him half a chance to not get beaten.

Just my opinion.


Robert
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 10:39:10 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 08:21:40 PM »
Having done both positions, I can see the wing being easier for a new official. BJ tends to rely a little bit more on intuition and experience w.r.t. reading pass vs. run, but also pass to the left or right -- getting caught focusing on your keys on an obvious pass play to the weak side is going to end poorly for a new official with no real experience. The wings only have to look in one basic direction, even if they get the brunt of the coaches behind them, it's easy to teach the new guys "Ignore what's going on behind you and focus on what's in front of you".

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 06:43:04 AM »
Wing will have more distractions in the form of coaches yelling (even if not at him), players going in and out, and more pre-snap responsibilities.

B won’t have as many calls, but the ones he does have will be quite important.

Pick your poison.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 07:27:50 AM »
We start our new guys at linesman, with the following logic :
(1) He has a duty on every play and dead ball period, staying active is staying alert.
(2) He is to shadow a linesman from the sidelines prior to a field assignment. Advise coach of his apprenticeship & and most chain crews welcome a clip man. Dead time allows him to ask details/advice from L.
BJ is responsible for key deep pass plays and play clock timing and with our 40" play clock requirements, may be too much for a rookie.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 07:42:04 AM »
One more thing to add -- assuming you don't have set crews that never change, a little scouting maybe also tell you where to put the new guy.

Both teams running high tempo spread offenses? Wing is probably your best bet, and gives the new guy experience in responding to coaches yelling "Pass interference!!" on every running play up the middle.

Both teams are 3 yards and cloud of dust style? Tonight might be a good idea for BJ to learn timing and reading formations without worrying too much about deep pass plays.

Offline bossman72

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 09:41:01 AM »
It's a tough call for sure.

I always say to put your Clydesdales on the wing, because they will keep the wagon from falling in the ditch.

You can usually hide someone in the middle of the field without them getting in too much trouble.  The wings make the most judgments of anybody on the crew during the course of a game.

Then again, I used that philosophy a few years ago and put a new guy at U and it didn't work out super great.  He stayed out of trouble and I could cover for him as R on OH and what not, but just general game administration was not very smooth with penalty enforcement and not knowing where to go, etc.  Was a little frustrating when trying to march off a penalty quick.

Then again, I'm assuming your situation is that you don't have a LJ right now and you're considering moving your experienced BJ to LJ.  Then you have another dynamic - does the BJ want to work wing?  Is he comfortable at BJ and does a good job?  If so, then I would just put the new guy at LJ and keep the crew the same.  Some guys are more apt to position switches than others.  Some pick it right up, but others look like a fish out of water and are noticeably uncomfortable at the new position.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 09:56:31 AM »
Not as easy of an answer as it seems.
Overall, if a guy is working friday, he should have experience with youth and JV (4 man crews) - which certainly includes wings and coaches.
So he has wing experience that no one should really worry about.  EXCEPT for those pesky friday coaches. - of course some of these youth "coaches" are about as nutty as a granola bar.

On the other hand at B a guy will not need to intereact with coaches and potentially put his foot in his mouth.  - which may be as important as working the actual plays.

Consider also a newer guy just moving up from JV as proably never worked B and hopefully has at least scrimmages at B under his belt so he knows his mechanics.

BUT hard to hide him on a blown call right in the middle of the field (i.e. PI or punt plays) - which are potentially bigger calls to blow than those the wings make.

Offline prab

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 02:55:31 PM »
How about asking the new guy where he would like to  work and WHY.  His answers might help you decide where to put him.  (I hereby plead guilty to failing to use gender neutral pronouns.  In my defense though, I still vote for Millard Fillmore.)

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 04:47:22 PM »
How about asking the new guy where he would like to  work and WHY.  His answers might help you decide where to put him.  (I hereby plead guilty to failing to use gender neutral pronouns.  In my defense though, I still vote for Millard Fillmore.)

Easy correction, I long ago declared the term guy (guys) is totally genderless, and applies equally to any and all human individuals.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 10:14:03 AM »
I would have him go to pre-season scrimmages and/or combines, give him experience at all 5 (or 7, if your state uses that in the post-season) positions, and have him choose from 2 or 3 that the evaluators believe that he would be best at (and he feels the most comfortable working).

I became a deep official in MD, because my former commissioner noticed that I ran quickly during the fun run that my association does before our rules interpretation meetings, and I appeared to quickly pick up on the stuff that they were teaching the deep guys in the teaching scrimmage (MD uses 6 officials for all varsity games, so I had no BJ experience until my 2nd season). I learned BJ on my own through repetitions at the Tom Beard Clinic and in scrimmages/semi-pro games, as well as an emergency 5-man game when the line judge failed to show up.
 In another scrimmage, this time a college football tryout, I was asked to take some snaps at the Center Judge position (I otherwise tried out as an FJ/SJ), and I was able to know what to do and do my responsibilities in that position well by the end of that scrimmage. This goes to show that people can sometimes succeed in unexpected situations, or have different sets of positions that they are successful in (if the guy the OP is discussing is a good wing official (or BJ) , perhaps he might be able to eventually do well in the postseason as an FJ or SJ, as well as in his primary 5-man position).

Offline HLinNC

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 09:50:55 PM »
What level are we working?  If its JV, might be best to put him at BJ, the calls can be bigger (deep pass, punts) but the level of play is not as important as the Friday night gig. If Friday night, while the sideline gnawing may be worse, there's less of a major foul-up on a deep play where he's on an island.


Offline ElvisLives

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Re: opinion on crew position
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2019, 07:33:56 AM »
What level are we working?  If its JV, might be best to put him at BJ, the calls can be bigger (deep pass, punts) but the level of play is not as important as the Friday night gig. If Friday night, while the sideline gnawing may be worse, there's less of a major foul-up on a deep play where he's on an island.

This is why this such a difficult decision.
For varsity play, I would much rather have experienced and stronger guys on the sidelines.  While a potential DPI call/no call or KCI call/no call may appear to be "bigger," one team or the other will be upset with such a call/no call, regardless if it is righteous or not, and there is nothing you can do about that.  That will happen with the best B on the planet.  But, those are almost purely judgment calls, and won't necessarily reflect on the official or crew as not knowing the rules or mechanics (i.e., being totally incompetent). 
On the other hand, an inexperienced and less knowledgeable wing will probably get really confused when both teams start jumping and moving before the ball is snapped, and he is likely to "freeze" and have that "deer in the headlights" look on his face, and that can do more damage to the credibility of the entire crew than a blown DPI call.  If he is able to offer any assistance at all on the neutral zone situation, he is likely to get it wrong, and the crew may not be able to refute what he says, and they'll enforce an incorrect penalty.  And when he tries to explain it to the penalized coach on his sideline, he'll show his ignorance, and or display a low level of confidence that the teams can recognize as incompetence, and suddenly the entire crew is incompetent, and they will question everything that happens for the rest of the game.  Pure misery for everyone at that point.  I'd much rather have a guy that knows neutral zone situations, and can confidently explain what happened.  Example: "Yes, coach, their guy jumped first, on your QB's hard count, but it was not a move intended to cause a false start, and he didn't enter the neutral zone.  Then your guard on the other side of the snapper fell out of his stance, so that's a false start." They still won't like it - that's just human nature.  But it will then be reduced to a judgment call, and not a case of incompetence with the rules.  The ability to calmly, confidently, and competently explain that type of situation takes experience AND a strong knowledge of the rules.  And you get that experience by working a lot of sub-varsity, and you get that knowledge by lots of rule study and video review. (Yes, the scenario given is for NCAA - NFHS rules may be very different, but that's not the point, here.)
That's my take.  Neither philosophy is necessarily "right" or "wrong."  Each crew will have to evaluate how to handle this, based on the known level of ability of the official in question, the rest of the crew, and the type of football they will be seeing.

Robert
 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 09:13:47 AM by ElvisLives »