Author Topic: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock  (Read 583 times)

Offline sirhoagy

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Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« on: April 17, 2019, 10:21:41 AM »
Worked a spring scrimmage this past weekend.  Had an interesting situation come up.  I thought it was straight-forward but the "veterans" were split on the penalty enforcement spot (which we didn't have as it's a scrimmage; we had a passionate academic debate afterward)

3rd-and-10 from the B45.

A1 takes the snap, drops back to pass, completes to receiver A21 at the B-10.

A21 is hit at the B-6 and the ball rolls forward into the end zone and then continues to roll over the end line.

During the play but prior to the pass by A1, B-77 grasps and twists A-50's facemask.

- From where do you enforce the penalty (and *why*), and
- When does the clock start?


Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2019, 10:24:29 AM »
I'll start with the first response as to what we did.

Four of us stated the enforcement spot of the penalty is the end of the run (B-10) because the play would result in a turnover. 
The force that put the ball out-of-bounds was the fumble by A - no new force.  Had there not been a penalty, B would have the ball.
Thus, we enforce half the distance from the B-10, 1st/goal from the B-5 yard line, clock on the ready for play.

Two others argued that we enforce from the spot of the fumble as it's the end of the run, no turnover had "in effect occurred' (whatever that means), clock on the ready.

One just stared at us blankly.

Offline Magician

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2019, 10:43:29 AM »
I'll start with the first response as to what we did.

Four of us stated the enforcement spot of the penalty is the end of the run (B-10) because the play would result in a turnover. 
The force that put the ball out-of-bounds was the fumble by A - no new force.  Had there not been a penalty, B would have the ball.
Thus, we enforce half the distance from the B-10, 1st/goal from the B-5 yard line, clock on the ready for play.

Two others argued that we enforce from the spot of the fumble as it's the end of the run, no turnover had "in effect occurred' (whatever that means), clock on the ready.

One just stared at us blankly.
I'm confused by your answer. You said the 4 of you considered the end of the run the B10 while the other 2 considered the end of the run the B6. Do you mean end of pass in the first one? That is never an enforcement spot.

The question here is the basic spot the previous spot or end of run. The foul occurred prior to the end of the pass so the basic spot is the previous spot. There is a special provision though in Rule 10-2-2e for team B fouls during a legal pass play. The enforcement spot is the end of the last run for personal fouls if there is no change of possession DURING THE DOWN. In this play the change of possession did not happen during the down (this is probably what the other 2 were referencing) so the penalty will still be enforced from the end of the run which was the B6. If B had recovered the fumble then the enforcement would be the previous spot.

Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2019, 10:53:00 AM »
SORRY SORRY SORRY MISSPOKE!!!

Typed that while my brain was in another gear.  Let me re-state it....oy!


The argument we had was where A will next put the ball into play.  The question arose as to from where we enforce the penalty.

Four of us argued that the penalty would be enforced previous spot, two argued it would be enforced from where A fumbled the ball.


Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2019, 11:11:50 AM »
Magician got the enforcement. Since there was no change of possession during the down, the penalty isnt enforced from the end of the run. The clock starts on the snap because the result of the play is still a touchback. Just like if it had been a touchdown called back for an offensive foul.

Online Kalle

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2019, 12:13:04 PM »
The four of you would have been right a few years ago before the rule was changed so that the fumble through the team B end zone does not count as a COP.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2019, 12:57:35 PM »
Whoa, Dudes.

Absolutely, this is not a case where the penalty may be added to the end of the last run, because, as Magician pointed out, there was no change of possession during the down (which was a major difference in interpretation between Adams and Redding some time back, but that's another story).

But let's step back a second.

-The foul occurred during the legal forward pass play portion of the down.
-The Basic Spot for fouls that occur during a legal forward pass play is the Previous Spot (10-2-2-d-3).  That rule governs unless 10-2-2-e-1 can apply, but 10-2-2-e-1 doesn't apply, since there was not a change of possession during the down.
-So, by 10-2-2-d-3, the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot, and, by the 3 and 1 principle, Team B fouls are penalized from the Basic Spot, so the penalty (15 yards plus a first down) is enforced at the Previous Spot, which yields A, 1/10, B-30, PC=25, GC=Snap (due to the apparent touchback).

Robert

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2019, 01:12:36 PM »
And before anybody starts to claim the clock should start on the Referee's signal because Team B will not next snap the ball, 3-3-2-f Snap Supersedes Referee's Signal governs, which states that when incidents occur that would cause the clock to start on the Referee's signal occur in conjunction with incidents that would cause the clock to start on the snap, the clock will start on the snap.  The clock stopping to complete the penalty occurred in conjunction with the touchback, so the touchback supersedes the completion of the penalty.  Snap.

Robert

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 01:17:35 PM »
Robert, a few years ago you would have been right. However, all personal fouls by B are now enforced from the end of the last run as long as that run ends beyond the NZ and there is no change of possession. This is in 7-3-12 as well as the penalty statement at the beginning of Rule 9. This change was made to bring all PFs in line with the enforcement for RPS.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 01:43:01 PM »
Oh Geez.  What was I thinking?  I know what I was thinking.  I had the COP thing backwards.  Yes, if there is no COP during the down then the penalty may be added to the end of the last run.  Duh.  My stupidity is only exceeded by my embarrassment.

But, I will say that, as you allude, during his reign as Sec-Ed, John Adams included a touchback as a bona fide COP.  Probably contributed to my momentary lapse of reason, but no excuse.

Half the distance from the end of the last run, yields A, 1/G, B-3, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Robert :-[ :-[ :-[
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 07:39:53 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline dvasques

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2019, 07:26:32 PM »
Sorry to bring this up but under IFAF rules, the game clock would run on the Ready.

Cause 3-3-2-d-1 says

Touchback (provided Team B will next snap the ball).

I know this here isn't IFAF forum but just figured that difference and wanted to hear from IFAF officials about it

Offline brettdj

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 09:11:16 AM »
Clock starts on the ready.

3.3.2.e1 Team A is awarded a first down, either through play or by penalty.

Online Kalle

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Re: Penalty Enforcement, Start of Clock
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 11:59:37 AM »
Clock starts on the ready.

3.3.2.e1 Team A is awarded a first down, either through play or by penalty.

Incorrect. We also have a 3-3-2-d-1 situation (the touchback), and rule 3-3-2-f tells us that 3-3-2-d situations trump 3-3-2-e ones.

And yes, this is one of the few differences NCAA and IFAF rules have.