Author Topic: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????  (Read 8415 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« on: April 23, 2019, 10:08:33 AM »
Now that I have your attention  :) , a rule that is probably second only to intentional pass interference in lack of application, is the above mentioned 3-5-7f :" An official's time out ....to dry or change the ball" may rear it's ugly head. We are encouraged to use ball boys liberally on kicks & passes OOB under the 40" clock. We are told that the only exception to administratively going to 25" RFP is on a new series (non COP). As the "walking rule books waiting to happen" -every chapter has a few - asks, Hop should we answer ????
 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2019, 10:39:54 AM »
Now that I have your attention  :) , a rule that is probably second only to intentional pass interference in lack of application, is the above mentioned 3-5-7f :" An official's time out ....to dry or change the ball" may rear it's ugly head. We are encouraged to use ball boys liberally on kicks & passes OOB under the 40" clock. We are told that the only exception to administratively going to 25" RFP is on a new series (non COP). As the "walking rule books waiting to happen" -every chapter has a few - asks, How should we answer ????
 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:

WHY did I repeat my topic ? = I was trying to correct "hop" to "how" and pushed the wrong key. Seniors sometimes do that  :-[ ....
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 11:17:04 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2019, 12:18:22 PM »

When I worked in Las Vegas, (a very dry climate similar to a pizza oven), at times our balls would sometimes get very dry,
Accordingly we would stop the game to bring in Fresh Wet Balls.
This was always considered an officials timeout.
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

Respectfully Submitted;
Some guy on a message forum

Offline Magician

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2019, 02:54:15 PM »
We never have to take a time out to dry or change a ball. We just get a new ball. Almost every state I know about does this as well so I wouldn't say it's a lack of application. This is one instance though where you could possibly reset the play clock to 25 if there is an excessive delay in replacing the ball.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 06:33:37 AM »
I have never once, in my lengthy career, taken a true official’s time out (ie, stopped the clock & tapped my chest) to dry or replace the football.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 08:58:35 AM »
Perhaps a reason why 40 second Play Clocks may NOT be all that appropriate for Interscholastic Level football, considering that NFHS rules usually govern sub-Varsity, as well as many "Youth" level contests as well as Varsity level competition.  Leaving the supervision of timing related to game management the responsibility (and control) of Game Officiating has served the sport reasonably well for many years, in the MANY different settings, and conditions in which theses games are played.

Recent complaints about overall game duration could have (perhaps should have) been more effectively corrected by specifically focusing attention on, and correcting, particular (Field Crew Management) practices that had deteriorated and become problematic (stricter adherence to consistently initiating the standard 25 second RFP clock, sideline management of the Chain Crews and game ball replacement, resuming play following scores) and where appropriate adjusting Timing rules (Game clock continuing to run on OOB plays, or restarting on the RFP rather than snap, Game clock continuing to run on progressive 1st downs) would have served to eliminate problems with far less consternation.

Sometimes an appropriate adjustment in medication can avoid the necessity of major surgery. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 09:01:58 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Magician

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 09:32:47 AM »
Perhaps a reason why 40 second Play Clocks may NOT be all that appropriate for Interscholastic Level football, considering that NFHS rules usually govern sub-Varsity, as well as many "Youth" level contests as well as Varsity level competition.  Leaving the supervision of timing related to game management the responsibility (and control) of Game Officiating has served the sport reasonably well for many years, in the MANY different settings, and conditions in which theses games are played.

Recent complaints about overall game duration could have (perhaps should have) been more effectively corrected by specifically focusing attention on, and correcting, particular (Field Crew Management) practices that had deteriorated and become problematic (stricter adherence to consistently initiating the standard 25 second RFP clock, sideline management of the Chain Crews and game ball replacement, resuming play following scores) and where appropriate adjusting Timing rules (Game clock continuing to run on OOB plays, or restarting on the RFP rather than snap, Game clock continuing to run on progressive 1st downs) would have served to eliminate problems with far less consternation.

Sometimes an appropriate adjustment in medication can avoid the necessity of major surgery. 

While our rules representative used game length as a reason for initially doing this it has little or no bearing on the length of a game. For every play where you had a delay in starting the game and play clock you had a delay in starting the play clock with the game clock already running. They are a wash. I know I'm a broken record, but this is all about consistency from dead ball to delay of game and having one less thing for the referee/crew to worry about between plays. Subvarsity games have much more lax enforcement of the play clock with or without visible clocks so it doesn't really matter which system you use if you even closely monitor it. Where it's still really nice there if you use the 40 is end of half situations. A team will know exactly when the play clock would expire if they are trying to consume time. And the defense will know you aren't cheating them by delaying the start of the 25 second clock and using extra time.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 01:45:56 PM »
this is all about consistency from dead ball to delay of game and having one less thing for the referee/crew to worry about between plays. Subvarsity games have much more lax enforcement of the play clock with or without visible clocks so it doesn't really matter which system you use if you even closely monitor it. Where it's still really nice there if you use the 40 is end of half situations. A team will know exactly when the play clock would expire if they are trying to consume time. And the defense will know you aren't cheating them by delaying the start of the 25 second clock and using extra time.

Consistency always has, and most likely always WILL REMAIN  firmly in the grip of the R (for that specific game being played). Specific to the NFHS environment, "Stuff" is likely to continue happening that may occasionally impact "consistency", and it will be up to the R to deal with unexpected (or inconsistent) "Stuff, as best suits the circumstances in which that "stuff" is happening.  Access to that flexibility is critical.  The play clock still starts when the R starts it, and it ends when it, or the half, expires.

As our NFHS Game Officials Manual suggests, "In addition to a complete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise.... At times, the emotions of players, coaches and crowds run high and game officials must control themselves in order to provide necessary leadership......Game officials must havea football sense which supersedes the technical application of the rules  so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgement in applying the rules." 

At times, rational flexibility tailored to address abnormal circumstances, provided by relevant judgment, serves better than arbitrary compliance with rigid requirements, when temporary circumstances deviate from normal, or expected.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 01:56:09 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline KWH

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 02:02:35 PM »
Perhaps a reason why 40 second Play Clocks may NOT be all that appropriate for Interscholastic Level football, considering that NFHS rules usually govern sub-Varsity, as well as many "Youth" level contests as well as Varsity level competition.  Leaving the supervision of timing related to game management the responsibility (and control) of Game Officiating has served the sport reasonably well for many years, in the MANY different settings, and conditions in which theses games are played.

.

Most common response to this statement remains: NFHS rules are written for Varsity Level Contests
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

Respectfully Submitted;
Some guy on a message forum

Offline Magician

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 04:54:54 PM »
Consistency always has, and most likely always WILL REMAIN  firmly in the grip of the R (for that specific game being played). Specific to the NFHS environment, "Stuff" is likely to continue happening that may occasionally impact "consistency", and it will be up to the R to deal with unexpected (or inconsistent) "Stuff, as best suits the circumstances in which that "stuff" is happening.  Access to that flexibility is critical.  The play clock still starts when the R starts it, and it ends when it, or the half, expires.

As our NFHS Game Officials Manual suggests, "In addition to a complete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise.... At times, the emotions of players, coaches and crowds run high and game officials must control themselves in order to provide necessary leadership......Game officials must havea football sense which supersedes the technical application of the rules  so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgement in applying the rules." 

At times, rational flexibility tailored to address abnormal circumstances, provided by relevant judgment, serves better than arbitrary compliance with rigid requirements, when temporary circumstances deviate from normal, or expected.

And this rule still allows for the flexibility to address the unexpected when it happens. It's just that it rarely happens when you have a consistent clock applied to it. I've stated before I think I can still count on 1 hand the number of times in our 3-year experiment that we had to reset the clock because something unusual happened. And the really weird situations are probably going to result in an officials time out anyway so nothing changes there at all.

I have watched very good crews who are very good with ball mechanics and hustle and everything, and they will still vary 3-5 seconds play to play on the RFP whistle and with extremes go to 5-10 second variations. The bad ones are even worse and play more on the fringes. That can be huge at the end of a game when a team is trying to conserve time and you either blow it 2-3 seconds too fast (HACK off the offense) or 2-3 seconds too late (HACK off the defense). Or in the middle of the game when you are consistent blowing it 15-18 seconds after the dead ball and then suddenly you have blown in 12 seconds after. Suddenly they are rushed through no fault of their own. That automatically goes away. And as a referee many of the plays you don't have to worry about the play clock. You don't have to worry about when the U spotted it and if you have blown the RFP within 3-5 seconds.

I liken it to having a navigation system or the back up camera in your car. Before you had it you didn't really see a huge need for it. I know where I'm going and I can turn around and see behind me. Then you have it and you realize how convenient it is and then you are lost when you drive a car without it. That is how every coach and official I know has responded to this rule change once they've done it. And I'm not exaggerating.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: RULE 3-5-7f : boon or boondangle ?????
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 06:55:12 PM »
Most common response to this statement remains: NFHS rules are written for Varsity Level Contests

No argument about what level NFHS rules "are written" for, but they still actually apply to a whole lot of other levels and circumstances.

Absolute consistency in timing (plus a long list of other areas) has been a constant, difficult and hard to attain pursuit.  Hopefully these changes (40 second play clock) will produce a successful step in that direction, worth the effort necessary.  As it so often does, "Time" will be the final judge if this change will produce results worth the effort.