Fed vs NCAA - motion vs shift

[Morningrise]

Massachusetts here, still learning Federation rules. One difference between NCAA and Federation is that Fed defines a shift as one or more players moving. What is the significance of this definition? I.E. what's an example of a motion or shift that's treated differently in Fed versus NCAA?

My first impression had been, "wow, so motion at the snap is illegal in Fed?!?" But if that were true, I think the presenter at our recent rules-differences crash-course would have just said that. So what is the difference between an illegal shift and legal motion at the snap?

[FLAHL]

A shift occurs when a player or players move from one position to another AND resets.  Breaking the huddle, backs moving from one side of the QB to another, TE moving from one side of the line to the other, etc are all shifts.  After the final shift, all players must be set for at least 1 second before the snap.  Motion is a player moving at the snap, and is definitely legal in FED as long as only 1 player is in motion and he is not moving forward at the snap. 

[Ralph Damren]

A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after taking set positions, move to a new position before the ensuing snap (2-39). An ILLEGAL shift is two or more players shifting at the snap (7-2-6). Illegal motion is explained in 7-2-7.  You may note the definition of a scrimmage kick formation is much complex than NCAA's (2-14-2, 7-2-5) . Our rule change was made in 2009. I proposed the simple NCAA definition, but was defeated. The thing to watch for is a field goal attempt prior to 4th down, as only the snapper can wear an exception number. In the first year of the new rule, I had a game where a team rushed their field goal unit on with only seconds to go in the first half. The kick was good, and during halftime a light bulb went off  ! Did they have FOUR players numbered between 50-79  ? I asked their coach, who in response, asked : "What's the statue of limitations on calling a penalty?" I responded : "Where we've had your kickoff after your score and a halftime, I guess it's too late to flag  ." He responded : " I sent in my  regular field goal team which only has only 2 between 50-79, not thinking about the new rule!" My retort was : "I wasn't thinking about it, either. "

[/MORALE OF STORY : JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, YOU FIND THAT YOU DON'T!

  b]

[Morningrise]

A shift occurs when a player or players move from one position to another AND resets.  Breaking the huddle, backs moving from one side of the QB to another, TE moving from one side of the line to the other, etc are all shifts.  After the final shift, all players must be set for at least 1 second before the snap.  Motion is a player moving at the snap, and is definitely legal in FED as long as only 1 player is in motion and he is not moving forward at the snap.

So the difference is in the 1-second pause requirement?

Team A is set. Back A11 begins running parallel to the LOS. Then:

a) A22 starts running as well. Then A11 stops. A22 continues until the snap. Illegal in Fed, right? Illegal in NCAA.

b) A11 stops, whereupon A22 starts running immediately or less than 1 second later. A22 continues until the snap. Illegal in Fed, right? Once A11 stopped, his motion became a shift and the 1-second rule applies. Legal in NCAA. There are no shifts and no 1-second requirement in this scenario since at no time was more than 1 player moving.

c) A11 stops. A22 starts running more than 1 second later. A22 continues until the snap. Legal in Fed. Legal in NCAA.

If b) is the only effective difference on the field, then that's a relief, because that's a somewhat nitty-gritty scenario, not the sort of thing that we'll see a dozen times in every game.

But I might be wrong... is there another scenario with a difference?

[Kalle]

But I might be wrong... is there another scenario with a difference?

How about: A11 stops just before the ball is snapped. Legal in NCAA, but does this qualify as a shift in Fed and thus be illegal? Or simply "too technical"?

[AlUpstateNY]

You might consider that a SHIFT (NFHS: 2-39) refers to a player(s) moving to "a new set position" (essentially changing the formation), after which (NFHS: 7-2-6) they must come, "to an absolute stop...for at least one full second before the snap (allowing the opponent to understand movement has stopped, and THAT formation has changed)
]
NFHS 7-2-7, allows "Only one A player", to be ,"in motion AT the snap" allowing the opponent to understand that this movement is PART of that formation, and that player may, or may NOT subsequently STOP before the snap.[/u]

[Magician]

I don't think there is any fundamental differernces in shifting or motion between NFHS and NCAA even if the wording is different. One exception is having a number exception in scrimmage kick formation become eligible by position following a shift. That is a foul in NCAA but not in NFHS. Any other differences I'm not thinking of off the top of my head?

[Badger1]

I may be wrong with this but I thought CalhounLJ addressed a similar ruling last year when there was a question on a player going in legal motion and stopping with less than a second before the snap.  Below is a part of his finding from the Redding Study Guide.


Re: Shift / Motion - legal or not?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 10:58:06 AM »
Quote
Maybe this will help. Page 10 of the 2017 Redding Study Guide, under the Heading, SHIFTS:
"If a player on the offensive team moves to a new position after the ready and before the snap, it is a shift. There might be several shifts between the ready and the snap (breaking the huddle is a shift), but no matter how many there are, after the last shift all members of the offensive team must stop and remain still for at least one second. After this one-second pause, the ball may be snapped, or one player may go legally in motion and still be moving away from or parallel to his scrimmage line when the ball is snapped. The point is the shift must be separated from the rest of the action by the one-second pause. Otherwise it is an illegal shift (live ball foul) simultaneous with the snap."
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 11:23:55 AM by CalhounLJ »
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Re: Shift / Motion - legal or not?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2018, 11:02:12 AM »
Quote
There is also this example on page 10:

EXAMPLE 3-7:
Team A has been set for one second when back A34, without committing a false start (a) goes in legal motion, or (b) steps forward to a new position on the line and takes a three-point stance. In either case, he stops, but before one second elapses, the ball is snapped.
RULING:
in (a), the snap is considered to have taken place while A34 is in legal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift; A34 had to be stationary for a full second before the snap because his motion was forward.

[bossman72]

The only one-man illegal shift I can think of is a player going from a 2 to a 3 point stance as the ball is being snapped.