Author Topic: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts  (Read 679 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:58:57 AM »
During a recent NFHS officials/coaches rules training session the question of faking taking a knee was discussed.  Under NFHS rules when we have been told that "He's taking a knee." and the QB then fakes taking a knee what should be the call (if any)?  Also, if there's no "He's taking a knee." input but in a hurry up after a completed pass and the QB steps back and immediately fakes taking a knee what should be the call (if any)?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 12:27:43 PM »
I'm not aware of a rule or case book play that covers this.  It's been discussed on this board several times.  My opinion:  If the QB or coach tells me he's taking a knee, our crew will pinch in and remind the defense not do do anything stupid.  Once that happens, and the QB starts to take a knee, I'm blowing the whistle and the play is over.  I'm not even giving the fake knee play a chance to develop.

If no coach or player tells us they're taking a knee, and they fake it, I don't have a foul.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 02:10:05 PM »
"Taking a knee" is a GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT and nothing more.  It's a regular play just like any other.

I never tell the defense they're taking a knee unless the game is clearly in-hand (by 2 scores).  When the offense tells me they are taking a knee, I tell the O-line to be sure to protect yourselves and the QB, because it's a live play.

The defense has the right to play and cause a fumble.

Tempers will flare, but that's what happens when you break an unwritten rule.  People get ticked off.

NCAA has a rule about simulating taking a knee, but NFHS does not.

Offline BIG UMP

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 04:27:03 PM »
I between FLAHL and Bossman.

I have my crew state, "Play with sportsmanship" and everything else, mechanically and rules wise, is the same.  If the snap is muffed and we've told the D to hold up we've taken away an opportunity from them.   Once the QB starts going down I don't wait, hit the whistle.
Big Ump
aka Shawn

"EVERY JOB IS A SELF-PORTRAIT OF THE PERSON WHO DID IT.  AUTOGRAPH YOUR WORK WITH EXCELLENCE."~unknown

Offline Magician

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 04:28:48 PM »
"Taking a knee" is a GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT and nothing more.  It's a regular play just like any other.

I never tell the defense they're taking a knee unless the game is clearly in-hand (by 2 scores).  When the offense tells me they are taking a knee, I tell the O-line to be sure to protect yourselves and the QB, because it's a live play.

The defense has the right to play and cause a fumble.

Tempers will flare, but that's what happens when you break an unwritten rule.  People get ticked off.

NCAA has a rule about simulating taking a knee, but NFHS does not.
I agree with this. If the offense bobbles the snap you can't expect the defense to not try to recover it. I just tell both teams to be smart unless the spread is more than 2 scores.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
There is no NFHS rule regarding the taking of a knee.  Local or state procedures may differ.  This topic has been beaten around the internet for years.
There are two camps and neither is going to sway the other.

When in Rome.....

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 06:53:40 AM »
“Offense, keep blocking.  Defense, don’t do anything stupid.”

That pretty much covers it.  No foul for faking a kneel-down, but it exponentially increases the chance for an IW.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 08:08:40 AM »
A few years ago we adopted the Ohio Gold Book victory formation protocol and it has worked fine. The NFHS doesn't have any rule in regards to fake taking a knee ;however the Gold Book does.

Offline Magician

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 08:25:37 AM »
There is no NFHS rule regarding the taking of a knee.  Local or state procedures may differ.  This topic has been beaten around the internet for years.
There are two camps and neither is going to sway the other.

When in Rome.....
For the camp who gets in there and tells the defense to relax regardless of game situation, what do you do if the QB fumbles the snap? You've essentially told the defense they can't try to recover it. Good luck with that.

Offline riffraft

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 09:22:22 AM »
Arizona's take a knee procedures

6.12 VICTORY FORMATION PROTOCOL
• When a team is ahead by 9 or more points, and can take a knee(s) to run out all of the remaining clock, officials will request for the leading team to declare their intent on whether they will be taking a knee. The officials will then inform the other team of the decision.
• If the leading team wishes to enter the victory formation, the officials will ensure that both teams understand and are expected to end the game in a sportsmanlike manner and without further contact.
• If the offensive team declares that they will be utilizing the victory formation, and runs an offensive play, then the officials will rule this an unfair act.
• If the offense fumbles the snap the ball is live and can be recovered by either team.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2019, 12:49:37 PM »
Arizona's take a knee procedures

6.12 VICTORY FORMATION PROTOCOL
• When a team is ahead by 9 or more points, and can take a knee(s) to run out all of the remaining clock, officials will request for the leading team to declare their intent on whether they will be taking a knee. The officials will then inform the other team of the decision.
• If the leading team wishes to enter the victory formation, the officials will ensure that both teams understand and are expected to end the game in a sportsmanlike manner and without further contact.
• If the offensive team declares that they will be utilizing the victory formation, and runs an offensive play, then the officials will rule this an unfair act.
• If the offense fumbles the snap the ball is live and can be recovered by either team.

Try as we might, we will NEVER fit this issue into a "One size fits all" solution.  Sometimes we just have to make immediate decisions based on what we understand is the (fair) intent of a rule.  When there is a previous announcement, it may be a little easier, but even with no announcement when the situation is obvious, the instant the snap is successfully completed may well be the opportune time to kill the play, before anyone has an opportunity to misbehave.

Directly asking/confirming intent of the QB may be helpful in determining if, or whether, an announcement is appropriate.

When choosing to make ANY announcement, EVERY player should hear you and moving VERY close to the QB may reinforce the clarity and urgency of your announcement.

Offline xkath

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 03:42:26 PM »
I like AZ's policy. There's case examples of verbalizing with the intent to deceive, as in the "wrong ball" scenario, that calls for UNS. I think it should apply here. Btw, "... fumbles the snap ..." is what laymen say, not officials.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2019, 04:34:24 PM »
“Offense, keep blocking.  Defense, don’t do anything stupid.”

That pretty much covers it.  No foul for faking a kneel-down, but it exponentially increases the chance for an IW.

Exactly.  "Defense, be smart.  Offense, protect yourselves."  Other than that, I don't say anything.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Taking a Knee - Massachusetts
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 11:16:52 PM »
to reiterate what others said - nothing covers this in the rule book. - and with things such as these I'll err towards safety with HS ball.
I suppose Im from the mindset of:
team A has outplayed team B for +/-47min and is up by 9 or more points. seeing that kids will be kids, unless they play for a guy named schiano - who has bounced more than a basketball, Im leaning towards not not giving the opportunity for a kid from B to cheap shot anyone after getting beat for 47min.
Of course, this is a fine topic to cover with coaches at a pre-game meeting.
To the point, if team A says they're taking a knee and do not do so, it seems it would fall with USC to me ala 'wrong ball' category