Author Topic: Blocked FG (Read 16017 times)

toma · « **on:** May 23, 2019, 09:01:31 AM »

4/7 B13 Kicker A1 attempts a FG from the B21. The kicked is blocked and the ball rolls to the B3 where the ball deflects off of A8. A8 had previously stepped on the sideline at the B9 and then reestablished back inbounds. B2 recovers the ball at the B1 with his knee on the sideline. Ruling?

bossman72 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »

IP by A8.
Either A 4/22 @ B36 or tack-on from the B1 and have B 1/10 @ B16. First touching is cancelled by acceptance of IP.

(Edit: I can't do math)

BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2019, 10:38:19 AM »

What if A8 or K8 in this scenario returns inbounds came back inbounds at B's 15. Without knowing where he came back in you just can't assume the previous spot is the enforcement spot.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2019, 01:20:02 PM »

Quote from: bossman72 on May 23, 2019, 09:30:53 AM

IP by A8.
Either A 4/22 @ B28 or tack-on from the B1 and have B 1/10 @ B16. First touching is cancelled by acceptance of IP.

The IP foul (sounds like it happened during a kick, subject to loose ball enforcement). The play ends with the OOB recovery at the b-1. Accepting the IP foul would be enforced from the previous spot, declining the penalty would invoke 1st touching by A-8 offering B possession at the B-3.

B's choice is declining the penalty, accepting the 1st touching and 1-10 at the B-3, or accepting the penalty, which would repeat A's 4th down at the B-26 (providing another opportunity for A to try a FG.)

BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2019, 01:33:46 PM »

In response to the last post from ALUpstateNY the spot your speaking of is the basic spot. Remember ABO, if K8 returns inbounds behind the 13 in this case or previous spot then the penalty would be enforced from there. Not trying to school you its just the the whole thread is errant without a beanbag down where K8 returned or at least a mention of it.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2019, 03:12:43 PM »

Doesn't the rule here require that we make a judgment call when A-8 " … stepped on the sideline …." that the act of stepping on the sideline was intentional? Or do we simply treat the OB as intentional unless it's 100% clear that the OB resulted from contact with another player?

FLAHL · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2019, 08:16:27 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on May 23, 2019, 03:12:43 PM

Doesn't the rule here require that we make a judgment call when A-8 " … stepped on the sideline …." that the act of stepping on the sideline was intentional? Or do we simply treat the OB as intentional unless it's 100% clear that the OB resulted from contact with another player?

For A/K, intentional or accidental doesn’t matter.

“ART. 1 . . . Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return to the field during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent. If a player is blocked out of bounds by an opponent and returns to the field during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity.”

bossman72 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 24, 2019, 08:23:20 AM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on May 23, 2019, 01:20:02 PM

The IP foul (sounds like it happened during a kick, subject to loose ball enforcement). The play ends with the OOB recovery at the b-1. Accepting the IP foul would be enforced from the previous spot, declining the penalty would invoke 1st touching by A-8 offering B possession at the B-3.

B's choice is declining the penalty, accepting the 1st touching and 1-10 at the B-3, or accepting the penalty, which would repeat A's 4th down at the B-26 (providing another opportunity for A to try a FG.)

Why would they not be able to tack this on from the B1 to make it 1/10 @ B16?

bossman72 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2019, 08:24:15 AM »

Chiefump · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2019, 09:53:16 AM »

On this play you have Unsuccessful field goal attempt OOB. The Team B player possesses the ball while he is on the sideline OOB thus the ball is OOB. The attempt was from the B13 so the succeeding spot will be the B20. The foul for the kicking team player OOB will be enforceable from the succeeding spot. Team B 1/10@B25.

BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2019, 10:01:27 AM »

In reply to bossman: 1/10 @ B16 is fine but 4/22 @ B36 is not, without knowing where A8 came back in!

Chiefump · « **Reply #11 on:** May 24, 2019, 10:26:41 AM »

For clarification, my answer is based on NCAA rules. I am not familiar with Federation rules. From the some of the posts, Fed treats an OOB player from kicking team differently than NCAA. I apologize for my unfamiliarity with Fed rules.

bossman72 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 24, 2019, 10:47:06 AM »

Quote from: BetweenTheLines on May 24, 2019, 10:01:27 AM

In reply to bossman: 1/10 @ B16 is fine but 4/22 @ B36 is not, without knowing where A8 came back in!

I'm picturing this play as he left and came back in somewhere beyond the LOS. I don't think I've ever seen this foul behind the LOS, if that's what you're getting at.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #13 on:** May 24, 2019, 11:51:47 AM »

Quote from: BetweenTheLines on May 23, 2019, 01:33:46 PM

In response to the last post from ALUpstateNY the spot your speaking of is the basic spot. Remember ABO, if K8 returns inbounds behind the 13 in this case or previous spot then the penalty would be enforced from there. Not trying to school you its just the the whole thread is errant without a beanbag down where K8 returned or at least a mention of it.

Agree the beanbag can definitely be your friend. An old, perhaps redundant mechanic, that once become habit can eliminate most arguments is beanbag the spot A went OOB, and flag the spot should A choose to re-enter the field.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #14 on:** May 24, 2019, 12:39:46 PM »

Quote from: FLAHL on May 23, 2019, 08:16:27 PM

For A/K, intentional or accidental doesn’t matter.

“ART. 1 . . . Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return to the field during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent. If a player is blocked out of bounds by an opponent and returns to the field during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity.”

I believe that's the wrong reference for this play since this is after a change of possession. Aren't we applying ART. 2 here?

No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the
down and:
a. Return to the field;
b. Intentionally touch the ball;
c. Influence the play; or
d. Otherwise participate.

Doesn't the player have to be deemed to have intentionally stepped OB to be in violation (i.e. fouled) on a post COP play?

js in sc · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2019, 02:49:40 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on May 24, 2019, 12:39:46 PM

I believe that's the wrong reference for this play since this is after a change of possession. Aren't we applying ART. 2 here?

No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the
down and:
a. Return to the field;
b. Intentionally touch the ball;
c. Influence the play; or
d. Otherwise participate.

Doesn't the player have to be deemed to have intentionally stepped OB to be in violation (i.e. fouled) on a post COP play?

No. Article 2 refers to all players, A and B, going out of bounds INTENTIONALLY and returning. Any B player can go out of bounds accidentally and return and participate, but as in Article 1, no A player can go OOB intentionally OR accidentally and participate unless forced out by a B player.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2019, 08:23:21 PM »

Quote from: js in sc on May 24, 2019, 02:49:40 PM

No. Article 2 refers to all players, A and B, going out of bounds INTENTIONALLY and returning. Any B player can go out of bounds accidentally and return and participate, but as in Article 1, no A player can go OOB intentionally OR accidentally and participate unless forced out by a B player.

Don't we read the rules as written? Article 1 applies to all plays " ..... Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession...". Article 2 by simple read must then apply to all other plays (any COP play after the COP). The case play in question has an A player touching OB after a change of possession (a grounded scrimmage kick beyond the NZ). Doesn't that mean Article 2 applies here and we have to judge that the A player was INTENTIONALLY OB before it draws a flag?

Magician · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2019, 05:34:29 AM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on May 24, 2019, 08:23:21 PM

Don't we read the rules as written? Article 1 applies to all plays " ..... Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession...". Article 2 by simple read must then apply to all other plays (any COP play after the COP). The case play in question has an A player touching OB after a change of possession (a grounded scrimmage kick beyond the NZ). Doesn't that mean Article 2 applies here and we have to judge that the A player was INTENTIONALLY OB before it draws a flag?

Not in this case because there was never a change of possession prior to the ball becoming dead. As for dropping a bean bag if K steps out of bounds and then re-establishes before contact/recovery, he's already fouled so you should drop a flag rather than a bean bag. It is extremely unlikely he would step out behind the NZ but this play says he does so that could be the enforcement spot if R chooses to replay the down.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2019, 07:03:54 AM »

LOS was the B13 and A stepped out at the B9. But more to the point when do we consider the actual COP to have taken place? Once the scrimmage kick has crossed the NZ or not until team B has actual physical possession and control?

bama_stripes · « **Reply #19 on:** May 25, 2019, 07:13:19 AM »

Has FED started using “A” & “B” instead of “K” & “R” while I wasn’t looking?

eprov · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2019, 06:58:56 AM »

Illegal Participation in this instance is Basic Spot not Previous Spot(9-6-1). The basic spot would be previous spot for loose ball play(10-4-2b) but is this the “EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play.” So would this be the succeeding spot(2-41-10) the spot where the ball would next be put into play if no foul occurred. So would that not be the first touch B3, 15 yard penalty?

bossman72 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2019, 11:22:23 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on May 25, 2019, 07:03:54 AM

LOS was the B13 and A stepped out at the B9. But more to the point when do we consider the actual COP to have taken place? Once the scrimmage kick has crossed the NZ or not until team B has actual physical possession and control?

Not until B has actual physical possession (or till the kick goes OOB).

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2019, 12:48:24 PM »

Quote from: Magician on May 25, 2019, 05:34:29 AM

As for dropping a bean bag if K steps out of bounds and then re-establishes before contact/recovery, he's already fouled so you should drop a flag rather than a bean bag.

Perhaps something that applies only to certain section of Rome, but the lesson was: A beanbag is a tool, to help pinpoint a particular spot that may (or may not) be subsequently important, that circumstances prevent you from Staying at while play continues. As for identifying a spot where someone went OOB, it's not absolutely necessary EXCEPT where their may be a subsequent dispute, about that spot, or if the player actually stepped OOB.

Like, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", a beanbag on a previous OOB designation can eliminate a lot of meaningless BS. When it proves to be unnecessary, it's simply picked up. If it might be kicked, or otherwise moved, it's simply not helpful.

A Flag is a whole different matter, and often having that beanbag to support why it was thrown can be very helpful.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #23 on:** May 28, 2019, 07:38:38 AM »

So with a minor change to the events:

4/7 B13 Kicker A1 attempts a FG from the B21. The kicked is blocked and the ball rolls to the B3 where B15 picks up the ball takes 2 steps then fumbles where the ball deflects off of A8. A8 had previously stepped on the sideline at the B9 and then reestablished back inbounds. B2 recovers the ball at the B1 with his knee on the sideline. Ruling?

bbeagle · « **Reply #24 on:** May 28, 2019, 12:29:56 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on May 28, 2019, 07:38:38 AM

4/7 B13 Kicker A1 attempts a FG from the B21. The kicked is blocked and the ball rolls to the B3 where B15 picks up the ball takes 2 steps then fumbles where the ball deflects off of A8. A8 had previously stepped on the sideline at the B9 and then reestablished back inbounds. B2 recovers the ball at the B1 with his knee on the sideline. Ruling?

Recovering the ball at the B1 with a knee on the sideline is NOT a recovery. The ball is out-of-bounds at the B1 in when it is touched by a player who is touching the sideline. Whoever had the ball previously retains possession.

In this case, the play is over when B1 touches the ball. B in possession at the B1.

The flag for the illegal participation would be marked off from where the kick ended (the B3 where B15 picked up the ball). This should have been marked with a bean bag.

1st and 10 for B at the B18. The fumbling afterwards is moot, even if A recovered.