Author Topic: Free Kicks  (Read 759 times)

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Free Kicks
« on: June 11, 2019, 07:36:06 PM »
Just attended our 2nd official MIAA sponsored training session for NFHS rules.  Had lots of good video that's been collected from 4 or 5 NFHS states.  One of the videos is the source of the following play questions:

Free kick to open the game and K kicks a very high kick toward the sideline that is coming down near the R-38 yard line as:

a) K81 catches the free kick on the fly in open space at the R-38 close to the sideline with no R player within 7-8 yards of him.

b) K81 catches the free kick on the fly at the R-38 close to the sideline with R25 approaching and just 1 yard in front of him.

c) K81 catches the free kick on the fly at the R-38 close to the sideline with R25, who has clearly given a legal fair catch signal, approaching and just 1 yard in front of him.

What do we have in each of these scenarios?
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Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 07:55:36 PM »
Just attended our 2nd official MIAA sponsored training session for NFHS rules.  Had lots of good video that's been collected from 4 or 5 NFHS states.  One of the videos is the source of the following play questions:

Free kick to open the game and K kicks a very high kick toward the sideline that is coming down near the R-38 yard line as:

a) K81 catches the free kick on the fly in open space at the R-38 close to the sideline with no R player within 7-8 yards of him.

b) K81 catches the free kick on the fly at the R-38 close to the sideline with R25 approaching and just 1 yard in front of him.

c) K81 catches the free kick on the fly at the R-38 close to the sideline with R25, who has clearly given a legal fair catch signal, approaching and just 1 yard in front of him.

What do we have in each of these scenarios?

Kick-catching interference in all cases above.  Also, you have "first touching". 

Below is a case play from the 2018 Case Book that seems to cover your situation.

 

6.1.7 SITUATION A:

A free kick from K's 40 is high and comes down over K's 45 where it is muffed in flight by K2 after which it is recovered by K3 on R's 40.

RULING: This is first touching and also kick-catching interference by K2. R may choose to take the ball at the spot of first touching, take the results of the play or accept the 15-yard penalty for kick-catching interference. If the distance penalty is accepted, it is R's choice to have the penalty enforced from the spot of the foul or to have it enforced from the previous spot and require K to rekick.

COMMENT: The clock will not be started when there is first touching of a free kick. The purpose is to prevent the kickers from taking advantage by touching the ball to start the clock and thereby deny the receivers the opportunity of putting the ball in play. The exception “the clock not starting with first touching,” is protection for the receiving team and is consistent with the philosophy that the receiving team be given an opportunity of putting the ball in play following a free kick. (3-4-1, 6-5-4, 6-5-6)
 

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 10:08:53 PM »
I would agree in b) and c) but in case play a) how do we get KCI given the actual language in Rule 6.1.6?

Rule 6, Section 1, ART. 6 . . . If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. 

Doesn't that language require that a physical KCI occurs and with no player within 7-8 yards of the K player we can't have KCI can we?

For clarification of case plays, don't case plays only apply to the rule section that they directly cite, in this case play the citation is 6.1.7 and 6.1.7 is for when the ball is caught by K inside the 10 yard area.
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Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 10:24:14 PM »
I would agree in b) and c) but in case play a) how do we get KCI given the actual language in Rule 6.1.6?

Rule 6, Section 1, ART. 6 . . . If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. 

Doesn't that language require that a physical KCI occurs and with no player within 7-8 yards of the K player we can't have KCI can we?

For clarification of case plays, don't case plays only apply to the rule section that they directly cite, in this case play the citation is 6.1.7 and 6.1.7 is for when the ball is caught by K inside the 10 yard area.

This is a free kick, not a scrimmage kick.  You did not read all the rule content.  The rest of the rule 6-1-6 is below.

ART. 6 . . . If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. Any K player may recover the ball before it goes beyond R's free-kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Such touching in the neutral zone by R is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if K muffs the ball into contact with R. Any K player may recover a free kick if it has both touched the ground and goes beyond the plane of R's free-kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order. If a free kick becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R.

The ball must touch the ground before K can recover a FREE KICK.

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 06:00:31 AM »
6-5-6a & 6-5-6b adequately cover these scenarios.

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2019, 06:03:35 PM »
Still very confused here.  What function does this have in the rules:  If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him …. unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching.

If it is true that K cannot under any circumstances touch an airborne free kick beyond the 10 yard zone then why is the highlighted wording at the beginning of the free kick rules?????

If K's catching the airborne free kick beyond 10 yards without any R player in the area is automatically either "an awarded KCI" or alternately an Illegal 1st touching violation then what purpose is the highlighted wording above?????
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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2019, 06:59:11 PM »
Still very confused here.  What function does this have in the rules:  If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him …. unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching.

If it is true that K cannot under any circumstances touch an airborne free kick beyond the 10 yard zone then why is the highlighted wording at the beginning of the free kick rules?????

If K's catching the airborne free kick beyond 10 yards without any R player in the area is automatically either "an awarded KCI" or alternately an Illegal 1st touching violation then what purpose is the highlighted wording above?????

You are missing the words after your highlighted statement.  Unless it is kick-catching interference, which it is if he touches it before the ball touches the ground.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2019, 08:58:40 PM »
If it is true that K cannot under any circumstances touch an airborne free kick beyond the 10 yard zone then why is the highlighted wording at the beginning of the free kick rules?????

If K's catching the airborne free kick beyond 10 yards without any R player in the area is automatically either "an awarded KCI" or alternately an Illegal 1st touching violation then what purpose is the highlighted wording above?????

Ralph:
Can you answer the questions NVFOA-UMP is asking in his post? ???

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2019, 09:15:00 PM »
A kick is not just a verb but also is the status of the ball.

Go look at the definition of a kick and the definition of recovery.

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 05:05:18 AM »
You are missing the words after your highlighted statement.  Unless it is kick-catching interference, which it is if he touches it before the ball touches the ground.

I don't believe that I'm missing anything.  Here's my read of the entire article:

ART. 6 . . . If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. This is simple, if K is in possession of a ball with status kick the ball is dead by rule.

It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. It's not KCI since no R player has given a fair catch signal and no K player is anywhere close to the kick when K catches it.  It's not first touching since it's a free kick that has gone well beyond the neutral zone. Therefore the ball belongs to team K according to the clear wording of the rule

Any K player may recover the ball before it goes beyond R’s free-kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Such touching in the neutral zone by R is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if K muffs the ball into contact with R. This sentence applies specifically to touching in the neutral zone and does not apply to the case play here.

Any K player may recover a free kick if it has both touched the ground and goes beyond the plane of R’s free-kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order.  This one discusses "recovery" which by definition means that we have a kick that has touched the ground.  In the case play the K player catches an airborne kick he does not recover a grounded kick.

If a free kick becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R. No comments needed here.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 05:21:52 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 05:15:57 AM »
A kick is not just a verb but also is the status of the ball.

Go look at the definition of a kick and the definition of recovery.

We're good with the definitions. We have an airborne loose ball on a free kick play and the status of the ball is kick - no problem there. Recover and recovery do not apply to the case play here.  The word in the case play is CATCH and it has it's own clear definition.  Catch applies to an airborne loose ball (here a loose ball from a free kick), recover/recovery applies to a grounded loose ball which does not apply here. Here's the definitions:

ART. 1 . . . A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball or having the forward progress of the player in possession stopped while the opponent is carrying the player who is in possession and inbounds.

ART. 1 . . . A recovery is gaining possession of a live ball after it strikes the ground. An airborne player has completed a recovery when he first contacts the ground inbounds with the ball in his possession.

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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 07:24:38 AM »
Quote
It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. It's not KCI since no R player has given a fair catch signal and no K R player is anywhere close to the kick when K catches it.  It's not first touching since it's a free kick that has gone well beyond the neutral zone. Therefore the ball belongs to team K according to the clear wording of the rule.

That would be true if we had a scrimmage kick.  This rule applies to free kicks, which is what we’re discussing.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 07:28:55 AM by bama_stripes »

Online CalhounLJ

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Free Kicks
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 07:32:39 AM »
I think the answer is fidelity to basic fundamentals. There’s a rule somewhere that states no foul causes loss of the ball. To say something like “if K catches a free kick, the ball belongs to the other team” would violate that fundamental. For example, let’s say K catches the free kick and for some crazy reason R declines the penalty.  By rule, the ball belongs to K at that point. When R accepts the penalty for kick catch interference, k’s foul has served to prevent K from possessing the ball.


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« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 07:35:00 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 10:24:21 AM »
Case play 6-1-6 A (2018)  answers your question.

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
Case play 6-1-6 A (2018)  answers your question.

6-1-6 A is a catch by K of an ungrounded free kick muffed by R and is not applicable to the a) part of the case play here.  In the a) part of the case play here the catch is of the free kick directly (no R muff) where we have a K player catching a free kick in flight (not grounded), with no KCI (no R player within 7-8 yards of the K catch) and no Illegal Touching (ball is well beyond the 10 yard restraining line).  Ralph, what's your take on this?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 01:46:16 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2019, 03:52:53 PM »
At this point, just what is the basic fundamental problem that you are having? 

K can never catch a free kick, in flight, untouched by R, without it being KCI, R being present or not.
A scrimmage kick, K may if no R player is in position.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2019, 04:47:01 PM »
I would agree in b) and c) but in case play a) how do we get KCI given the actual language in Rule 6.1.6?

Rule 6, Section 1, ART. 6 . . . If any K player recovers or catches a free kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. 

Doesn't that language require that a physical KCI occurs and with no player within 7-8 yards of the K player we can't have KCI can we?

For clarification of case plays, don't case plays only apply to the rule section that they directly cite, in this case play the citation is 6.1.7 and 6.1.7 is for when the ball is caught by K inside the 10 yard area.
To go back to this question- the answer is no, we don’t have to have “physical” KCI to have KCI ?!? In this situation. The act of catching the ball before it touched the ground was enough “physical activity” to warrant a flag for KCI.


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Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 04:51:01 PM »
6-1-6 A is a catch by K of an ungrounded free kick muffed by R and is not applicable to the a) part of the case play here.  In the a) part of the case play here the catch is of the free kick directly (no R muff) where we have a K player catching a free kick in flight (not grounded), with no KCI (no R player within 7-8 yards of the K catch) and no Illegal Touching (ball is well beyond the 10 yard restraining line).  Ralph, what's your take on this?

The highlighted above is exactly what applies in this case.  If the free kick is muffed by "R" and is caught by "K", the ball belongs to Team K.  If it is not touched by Team A, it is kick-catching interference, period.  (See the definition of a catch)  That is the point Case Play 6.1.6A and 6.1.7B are trying to make.

This is different from the NCAA rule, I believe.. Is that the factor causing you confusion?

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
The highlighted above is exactly what applies in this case.  If the free kick is muffed by "R" and is caught by "K", the ball belongs to Team K.  If it is not touched by Team A, it is kick-catching interference, period.  (See the definition of a catch)  That is the point Case Play 6.1.6A and 6.1.7B are trying to make.

This is different from the NCAA rule, I believe.. Is that the factor causing you confusion?

You've likely hit the reason the word "catch" is in the rule. If it's touched by R before K catches it then KCI doesn't apply. If K catches a free kick untouched by R it's KCI by definition regardless if R is in the area. This is the part that is different from NCAA as it does require a B player in the area to be KCI. Also in NCAA is B signals for fair catch and muffs it so they are still in a position to catch it and A then touches it, they are guilty of KCI. The NFHS doesn't have that same rule.

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 09:08:34 AM »
You've likely hit the reason the word "catch" is in the rule. If it's touched by R before K catches it then KCI doesn't apply. If K catches a free kick untouched by R it's KCI by definition regardless if R is in the area. This is the part that is different from NCAA as it does require a B player in the area to be KCI. Also in NCAA is B signals for fair catch and muffs it so they are still in a position to catch it and A then touches it, they are guilty of KCI. The NFHS doesn't have that same rule.

OK - I think we're getting there.  Now, where in the NFHS rules documents is KCI actually defined and more specifically where in the rules do we get that it is ALWAYS a KCI foul if K catches a free kick beyond the NZ untouched by R?

I worked as the U in a men's game in RI last night and the other 4 crew members are RI (NFHS rules) officials so we had a postgame quiz on this.  All four decided that the ball was K's, 1st and 10 at the spot of the catch provided that there were no R players anywhere near the catch spot.

I've had this (the attachment) from George Demetriou 2018 differences document (it's in there every year) but cannot for the life of me find any specific rules support for it.  When in a round table with an entire leagues coaching staffs and I show this slide what specific rules reference do I give to explain that 6.1.6 doesn't actually mean what it clearly says since somewhere else it's defined as KCI? 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 09:10:10 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 09:40:51 AM »
6-5-6 gives the restriction against touching a kick (free or otherwise) in flight. The exception allows K to touch/catch/bat a scrimmage kick in flight if R is not in position. Important note: the exception doesn't apply on a free kick. Penalty for article 6: Kick Catch Interference.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 09:43:22 AM »
more specifically where in the rules do we get that it is ALWAYS a KCI foul if K catches a free kick beyond the NZ untouched by R?
I worked as the U in a men's game in RI last night and the other 4 crew members are RI (NFHS rules) officials so we had a postgame quiz on this.  All four decided that the ball was K's, 1st and 10 at the spot of the catch provided that there were no R players anywhere near the catch spot.

When in a round table with an entire leagues coaching staffs and I show this slide what specific rules reference do I give to explain that 6.1.6 doesn't actually mean what it clearly says since somewhere else it's defined as KCI?

The confusion might be that NFHS 6-1-6 refers to (exclusively) [/b][/i]Free Kicks.  NFHS 6-5 specifically refers to "Fair Catch" the rule reference you're seeking  can be found in NFHS 6-5-6 (exception) "K may catch, touch, muff or bat a SCRIMMAGE Kickin flight beyond the NZif no player of R is in position to catch the ball."

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 09:46:52 AM »
6-5-6 gives the restriction against touching a kick (free or otherwise) in flight. The exception allows K to touch/catch/bat a scrimmage kick in flight if R is not in position. Important note: the exception doesn't apply on a free kick. Penalty for article 6: Kick Catch Interference.

The exact wording:

While any free kick is in flight in or beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line or any scrimmage kick is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line, K shall not:

a. Touch the ball or R, unless blocked into the ball or R, or to ward off a blocker; or
b. Obstruct R's path to the ball.

This prohibition applies even when no fair-catch signal is given, but it does not apply after a free kick has been touched by a receiver, or after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching.

EXCEPTION: K may catch, touch, muff or bat a scrimmage kick in flight beyond the neutral zone if no player of R is in position to catch the ball.

Online CalhounLJ

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2019, 09:48:17 AM »
6-5-6 gives the restriction against touching a kick (free or otherwise) in flight. The exception allows K to touch/catch/bat a scrimmage kick in flight if R is not in position. Important note: the exception doesn't apply on a free kick. Penalty for article 6: Kick Catch Interference.

Word for word example in the 2017 Redding Study Guide, page 60 under "opportunity to catch a free kick." Gives an example of K catching a free kick when no R player is in position. Ruling: Kick Catching Interference and also first touching by K.

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Re: Free Kicks
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2019, 12:17:21 PM »
OK - Finally there!  We're all having a bit of trouble with the seemingly lack of order to the NFHS rules, or maybe we're all just to familiar with the order of NCAA rules, but we're getting there.  Thanks and sorry for the time it took to get here.  We're learning and we have to overcome our ingrained NCAA rules knowledge pretty fast.

To finish, do we have a 5 yard free kick infraction here or a 15 yard KCI?
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