Author Topic: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU  (Read 1108 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Morningrise

  • *
  • Posts: 548
  • FAN REACTION: +20/-5
Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« on: October 07, 2019, 10:22:04 AM »
https://thecomeback.com/ncaa/tulsa-pulls-off-the-ol-onside-kick-touchdown-vs-smu.html

What's going on here? Was this reviewed? Was the ROF that the kick never bounced in the EZ? Because it did. Maybe they ruled B4 touched the kick? I don't see anyone winding the clock. Both of those aspects are reviewable IIRC.

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • FAN REACTION: +39/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2019, 10:55:04 AM »
Prefacing that I'm not 100% up on my NCAA kickoff rules, but K20 does touch the kick at the 1 before gaining possession in the endzone.

Is that significant in the ruling?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3181
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-109
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2019, 11:29:41 AM »
Don't see any need for review here.  Covering official was right on the call at the pylon, and under NCAA rules this is a live ball and is free for either team to legally recover.  Location of the ball does not change it's status - loose ball from a free kick.  Don't really see any need for a wind here since the time from the initial K touch was immediately before the K recovery just as the ball is entering the EZ.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 12:12:25 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2019, 11:32:57 AM »
The ball appears to have been touched in the field of play by the receiving team, so the ball remains alive and in play when it touches the ground in their end zone.  When/if the covering official saw the ball touched by the receiving team, yes, he should have signaled for the clock to start.  The ball is available for either team to legally recover.  The kicking team recovered, so, touchdown is the correct ruling.

If Replay were to get involved - and no doubt they reviewed it - unless they could determine that the ball had not been touched by the receiving team, there would be nothing to change, except to, perhaps, subtract 1 or 2 seconds off the game clock.

If Replay, somehow, was to determine that the ball had not been touched, then, yes, they could have changed the ruling to a touchback.  Since that didn't happen, we can surmise that they either clearly saw the ball touch the receiving team player, or could not tell one way or the other, and let the ruling on the field stand.


I correct myself.  I was only looking at the high angle view.  When I see the close-up view, I don't see the ball touch the receiving team player.  Yes, the kicking team player touches it in the field of play, and that is a legal touch that would start the game clock, but the ball would be dead and a touchback the instant it touches the ground in the end zone.  Replay could see that and correct the ruling on the field, unless they didn't have this view (don't know why they wouldn't), and also thought that the ball touched the receiving team (like I did on the original view).

Difficult play.

 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 11:42:38 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3181
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-109
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2019, 01:37:53 PM »
So after reading Elvis' post I went back and watched this multiple times and do agree that it's impossible to confirm that R ever touched the ball.  That being said isn't the requirement to overturn this that replay must confirm with clear visual evidence that R did not touch the ball?  I'm not sure that's possible either and confirming a negative is always tougher than confirming a touch.  And I'm pretty sure that replay must have looked at this with multiple views given the time available here, but I'm guessing that they didn't have anything to be able to overturn the call on the field.

I'm guessing that if the initial ruling was TB, then replay would have also let that stand.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8638
  • FAN REACTION: +227/-245
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2019, 02:22:27 PM »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2898
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 01:18:45 AM »
As I understand it there are two key questions.

1. Did the ball touch the ground in the end zone? The answer to this is IMO "clearly yes."

2. If it did, did a team B player touch the ball before it touched ground in the EZ? The answer to this is "I don't think so".

IR result would then depend on the rulings on the field:

No / No: Call reversed to a touchback
No / Yes: Call stands
Yes / No: Call reversed to a touchback (should actually happen on the field, as this is a rule question, not a judgement)
Yes / Yes: Call stands

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 07:21:38 AM »
 ^good
As I understand it there are two key questions.

1. Did the ball touch the ground in the end zone? The answer to this is IMO "clearly yes."

2. If it did, did a team B player touch the ball before it touched ground in the EZ? The answer to this is "I don't think so".

IR result would then depend on the rulings on the field:

No / No: Call reversed to a touchback
No / Yes: Call stands
Yes / No: Call reversed to a touchback (should actually happen on the field, as this is a rule question, not a judgement)
Yes / Yes: Call stands

Kalle,

In the “No/No” scenario, let me be sure I understand what you mean.  I believe you mean that the ball did not touch the ground in the end zone, and the ball was not touched by Team B.  If I understand that correctly, then, in that scenario, the recovery of the ball by Team A would result in a touchdown.  In such a scenario on a kickoff, Team A is permitted to touch the ball after it has reached B’s restraining line, which it obviously had.  If Team A is able to secure the ball in the air beyond B’s goal line but before it touches the ground in the end zone, that would result in a touchdown.

In the Tulsa/SMU play, the ball clearly does touch the ground in the end zone, so the result of the down is totally dependent upon whether Team B touched the ball before it touched the ground in the end zone.  If yes, then the result would be a touchdown (as ruled on the field).  If not, then the result would be a touchback the instant the ball first touched the ground in the end zone.

Robert

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2898
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2019, 09:18:54 AM »
^good
Kalle,

In the “No/No” scenario, let me be sure I understand what you mean.  I believe you mean that the ball did not touch the ground in the end zone, and the ball was not touched by Team B.  If I understand that correctly, then, in that scenario, the recovery of the ball by Team A would result in a touchdown.  In such a scenario on a kickoff, Team A is permitted to touch the ball after it has reached B’s restraining line, which it obviously had.  If Team A is able to secure the ball in the air beyond B’s goal line but before it touches the ground in the end zone, that would result in a touchdown.

In the Tulsa/SMU play, the ball clearly does touch the ground in the end zone, so the result of the down is totally dependent upon whether Team B touched the ball before it touched the ground in the end zone.  If yes, then the result would be a touchdown (as ruled on the field).  If not, then the result would be a touchback the instant the ball first touched the ground in the end zone.

Robert

What I meant to say was that the "no/no" would have been the ruling on the field and then the result would have been after IR steps in. So, in that situation, the covering official had ruled no touching in the end zone (obviously incorrect) and no touching by any team B player (debatable but I think correct), and the IR then reverses the obviously incorrect ruling (touchdown) to the correct one (touchback).

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2019, 10:22:59 AM »
What I meant to say was that the "no/no" would have been the ruling on the field and then the result would have been after IR steps in. So, in that situation, the covering official had ruled no touching in the end zone (obviously incorrect) and no touching by any team B player (debatable but I think correct), and the IR then reverses the obviously incorrect ruling (touchdown) to the correct one (touchback).

Ah, that's different.  Yes, if the ball was not touched by ANYBODY prior to touching the ground in the end zone, then touchback.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2898
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2019, 08:00:02 AM »
The word is that IR screwed up. They had clear and indisputable evidence that no team B player touches the ball and it hits the ground in the EZ after being touched by a team A player, but they failed to know the rule, so they actually confirmed the call on the field.

Offline DallasLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 535
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-15
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2019, 12:58:19 PM »
I was there.  It was ugly.  That 2 Crew / IR screw ups at SMU in 3 home games.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8638
  • FAN REACTION: +227/-245
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2019, 05:03:17 PM »
For those who do not get it the weekly CFO videos, Redding’s video this week included the kickoff play. His comments make  it clear he does not even know what exactly happened on the field. He indicated both the on field crew and IR missed it

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2231
  • FAN REACTION: +84/-30
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2019, 05:54:38 PM »
For those who do not get it the weekly CFO videos, Redding’s video this week included the kickoff play. His comments make  it clear he does not even know what exactly happened on the field. He indicated both the on field crew and IR missed it

Play 4 on the videos was also interesting.  On that one I'm trying to figure out why B threw a bean bag.  Did he think the ball was caught?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2019, 09:00:14 PM »
Play 4 on the videos was also interesting.  On that one I'm trying to figure out why B threw a bean bag.  Did he think the ball was caught?

The only explanation for that is that the B ruled the ball to have been caught and fumbled, so he was marking the spot of the fumble.  There would be no other proper reason to drop a spot marker.

Robert

***RATS***
Correction.  It COULD have been that he ruled that the ball had been caught, thus, the end of the kick. And then the ball was fumbled, which should have triggered another spot marker (although they were essentially the same yard line).
I continue to maintain that we should STOP holding our spot markers in our hands on ANY down.  They are a tool, no different than our foul marker or whistle, and we simply need to know when to use those tools, and select the appropriate tool when needed.  Holding it in the hand just invites dropping/tossing it at a time when it is not needed.  On this play, what was needed was Signal 11 (legal touching), followed by ruling the ball dead when Team A possessed it, and then stopping the clock.  I firmly believe that NOT holding the spot marker in the hand will force the official to process the action better and make the correct ruling (and use the correct tools and the right times).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 10:24:59 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Redding's Video Review
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2019, 09:15:09 PM »
Yeah, we gotta nip this bounce kick thing in the bud.  The NFL ultimately decided that such action is not a legal drop kick in their game, and it has never been a legal drop kick in NCAA.  Unfortunately, not even some NCAA officials understand - or understood - this.  To be a drop kick, it must be kicked AS it strikes the ground, or IMMEDIATELY after it strikes the ground.  The only reason the "immediately" thing is in there is because it is not always possible to kick the ball exactly as it strikes the ground.  If it rises very slightly off the ground, like less than the height of the toe portion of the kicker's shoe, then that is OK.  Any appreciable distance above the ground is not OK.  That becomes an illegal kick.  And, by this bulletin, it is a dead-ball foul.

Ummm.  I'm not sure Redding's comment about Ivy League players being smarter than players in other leagues will go over very well, if any coaches actually look at these videos.  I guess we'll find out.

Robert


Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8638
  • FAN REACTION: +227/-245
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »
Play 4 on the videos was also interesting.  On that one I'm trying to figure out why B threw a bean bag.  Did he think the ball was caught?

The play  https://youtu.be/OA-wtXeUAF0

Maybe he anticipated it would be end of kick.  Although letting the play continue would imply he is ruling possession and fumble.   On plays like this dont the R's normally say "The ruling on the field is blah blah blah" ?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 10:04:45 PM by TXMike »

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 931
  • FAN REACTION: +156/-5
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 09:26:23 AM »
Yeah, we gotta nip this bounce kick thing in the bud.  The NFL ultimately decided that such action i er leagues will go over very well, if any coaches actually look at these videos.  I guess we'll find out.

Robert

Pretty rough when your incorrect call results in a bulletin where this is the only play mentioned. And it's been called out on every training tape I've seen since last weekend. I'm not sure if I would have called it in real time on the field since I had never seen a kick list this and probably didn't study the rule close enough to consider this specific scenario. Now that I've re-read the rule in this context it's obvious this should have been a foul. I was always more concerned about the ball hitting the ground before being kicked (not a punt) than the other side of it. Of course I've only seen 2 or 3 drop kicks in my 20-year career so they are rare. I wouldn't be too critical of these officials because it's probably a pretty rare occurrence for them as well.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 10:01:43 AM »
I wouldn't be too critical of these officials because it's probably a pretty rare occurrence for them as well.

Absolutely correct.  It only happened because they were copycatting the guy that got away with it in an NFL game a week or two before.  Since then, the NFL has decided this is NOT a legal drop kick, and you won't see it any more (at least it will be a foul if you see it, now).  As I read the story, the NFL team asked about using something like this on a kickoff, but the description provided by the team was nowhere near what actually happened; thus, the NFL's subsequent ruling that the bounce kick is not a legal drop kick - just as it has been in NCAA for at least 48 years (probably much longer).
Had this happened in an NCAA game - oh wait, it did! - in my qualified and "been there, done that" experience, there is no excuse for an NCAA official to not have known this was illegal.  What is, and what isn't, a legal place kick, punt, or drop kick are fundamental rules; not new, or recently changed; and not ambiguous or buried deep in the ARs.  We gotta know these.
Receiving non-personal, but legitimate, criticism is part of our 'deal.' I got - and still get - my share. But I learn from it, get better, and move ahead. It is what we do.

Robert
 

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 931
  • FAN REACTION: +156/-5
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 01:49:06 PM »
Absolutely correct.  It only happened because they were copycatting the guy that got away with it in an NFL game a week or two before.  Since then, the NFL has decided this is NOT a legal drop kick, and you won't see it any more (at least it will be a foul if you see it, now).  As I read the story, the NFL team asked about using something like this on a kickoff, but the description provided by the team was nowhere near what actually happened; thus, the NFL's subsequent ruling that the bounce kick is not a legal drop kick - just as it has been in NCAA for at least 48 years (probably much longer).
Had this happened in an NCAA game - oh wait, it did! - in my qualified and "been there, done that" experience, there is no excuse for an NCAA official to not have known this was illegal.  What is, and what isn't, a legal place kick, punt, or drop kick are fundamental rules; not new, or recently changed; and not ambiguous or buried deep in the ARs.  We gotta know these.
Receiving non-personal, but legitimate, criticism is part of our 'deal.' I got - and still get - my share. But I learn from it, get better, and move ahead. It is what we do.

Robert
 

Agreed. There is a difference between "you got this call wrong and will get a downgrade for it" and "OMG...how could you possibly have not flagged that? It's so obviously a foul."

Offline dvasques

  • *
  • Posts: 488
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-2
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2019, 05:09:24 PM »
On the matter of know what a place kick is, am I right in understanding that if team A places the bal lying down on the ground with no tee and nobody holding it for a free kick is a legal placekick?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2019, 05:44:55 PM »
On the matter of know what a place kick is, am I right in understanding that if team A places the bal lying down on the ground with no tee and nobody holding it for a free kick is a legal placekick?

Yes, simply placing the ball on the ground for a free kick is perfectly legal.  2-16-4-b says "...while the ball is positioned on a tee or on the ground."  You just don't see it - even for an onside kick.

Robert

Offline dvasques

  • *
  • Posts: 488
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-2
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2019, 06:01:16 PM »
Yeah... I saw it today. And didn't allow. My mistake.

Offline TxBJ

  • *
  • Posts: 258
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-4
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2019, 09:51:00 PM »
As long as there is no tee on the field. If there is a tee the ball must be touching it.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-69
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Kickoff rolls to the goal line - Tulsa vs SMU
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2019, 06:12:24 AM »
As long as there is no tee on the field. If there is a tee the ball must be touching it.

Yeah, I saw where Redding made that statement in one of the video reviews, but I don't see where he has rule support for making that statement.  There is nothing in the rules that prohibits the kicking team from having a tee on the field with them, but then kick it off the ground or drop kick it (or punt it, when allowed).  Personally, I don't have a problem with requiring team that brings a tee onto the field to use it (as a tee is intended).  But, the current rule language and interpretations don't prohibit it.

Robert