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Author Topic: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?  (Read 9274 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« on: October 21, 2019, 11:21:24 AM »
Was called in the OM/AM game Saturday. So I’m NCAA losing yards to keep from losing yards is a foul?


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Offline TXMike

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2019, 11:28:30 AM »
It was near end of game?  Maybe they judged he was trying to conserve time?
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2019, 11:37:20 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on October 21, 2019, 11:28:30 AM
It was near end of game?  Maybe they judged he was trying to conserve time?
Maybe that was it.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2019, 11:41:23 AM »
So that’s illegal in college? Because you can throw a backward pass oob in nfhs


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Offline TXMike

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2019, 11:55:05 AM »
You can in NCAA also unless to conserve time.  Just looked at it on DVR   That is what they called, not Int Grounding    1:19 left in game  That is one you dont see often     Should make Redding's video as good work
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2019, 01:32:48 PM »
Not a foul in NFHS, even if intentional. The rationale is that, where backwards, the net loss is even greater than if sacked . You couldn't apply 3-4-6 as it reads : When a team attempts to conserve or consume time ILLEGALLY, the referee shall order the clock started  or stopped.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2019, 06:34:22 AM »
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2019, 07:44:06 AM »
My first thought when I saw the action was 'illegal backward pass thrown to conserve time,' and I noted they were under 2 minutes in the 4th period.  Ah Ha! Will they start the game clock on the RFP?  Ah Ha! They did. Marvelous.

As TxMike pointed out, this is NOT "intentional grounding," but an illegal backward pass, which carries both a distance penalty (5 yards from the spot of the pass),  AND loss of down.  And 3-4-3 instructs us to start the game clock on the RFP for an illegal pass (forward or backward) thrown to conserve time.

All done correctly.

What I especially liked was the fact that the play clock operator quite correctly started the play clock on the dead ball, and it is seen counting down while the crew is conferring.  Once a foul was determined, and a flag dropped, then the PCO reset to 25 and held.  Beautiful.  Well done.  That could get an 8.

Robert

 
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Offline bossman72

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 09:28:19 AM »
This seems like he tried to intentionally ground the ball OOB but couldn't throw because of the defender affecting the throw.  The throw ended up going backward.  This seemed to be a throw to save a loss of yardage, not time.

I always envisioned this rule being for when a runner is trying to get OOB, and realizing he can't, then throws a backward pass OOB.
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Offline bossman72

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 09:34:26 AM »
Thinking about it again, it's probably the right call.  If this happened with 0:08 left, that would be a travesty if we didn't call a foul here with a runoff just because it went backward when he was trying to intentionally ground it.

If this happens in the 1st qtr, maybe let it slide.  But in crunch time, we probably have to assume it's done to conserve time.
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2019, 01:38:14 PM »
Working a local high school game many years ago, before the current IG rules.  Back then, you couldn't legally ground it at all, and passes to conserve yardage were just a common foul, i.e., the clock started on the snap. But fouls for passes to conserve time called to have the GC started on the RFP.
I was acquainted with the Team A QB (nephew of my wife's friend).  Smart guy - eventually went to West Point.  Seconds remaining in 2nd period.  Under pressure, he heaves a pass to nowhere.  I flag him for IG.  We set up for the next down with only one or two seconds remaining.  His team is still milling around, not ready to snap the ball.  I signal the RFP.  After several seconds his team gets set and are about to snap the ball.  Just then, the thought occurred to me that he might have done that to conserve time, not just yardage.  Too late.  Ball snapped.  He throws a TD pass.  Halftime.
In the locker room, I'm thinking, "Was that to conserve time or yardage?"  I confer with my crew, and they offer that they think he just threw it away because he was getting buried, i.e., loss of yardage.  Not winding was right (they said). OK, but I just didn't feel really good about it.

Heading onto the field after halftime, I saw the QB, and went over to him and said, "Hey, Ty.  What was going through your mind on that play where I called intentional grounding?"  He said, "Ah, sh--, we're outta time outs."

Just a HS guy.  These guys are smarter than we think.

Shoulda wound it and he wouldn't have had time to snap the ball, and they wouldn't have scored.

Didn't make a difference in the outcome of the game.  They lost anyway.  But, it was still incorrect.

Robert
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Offline TXMike

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2019, 01:53:28 PM »
I realize that was probably when they were wearing leather helmets...but didnt the rules then have the R discretion caveat on the clock starting?
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2019, 02:29:26 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on October 22, 2019, 01:53:28 PM
I realize that was probably when they were wearing leather helmets...but didnt the rules then have the R discretion caveat on the clock starting?

Yes, but it requires the numnuts Referee to use that 'discretion' at the right time.  Remembering that discretion after the next snap doesn't do much good.  Slap me around.... :embarassed:
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Offline Magician

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Re: BACKWARD PASS OOB to avoid loss of yardage?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2019, 05:11:43 PM »
Quote from: ElvisLives on October 22, 2019, 01:38:14 PM
Working a local high school game many years ago, before the current IG rules.  Back then, you couldn't legally ground it at all, and passes to conserve yardage were just a common foul, i.e., the clock started on the snap. But fouls for passes to conserve time called to have the GC started on the RFP.
I was acquainted with the Team A QB (nephew of my wife's friend).  Smart guy - eventually went to West Point.  Seconds remaining in 2nd period.  Under pressure, he heaves a pass to nowhere.  I flag him for IG.  We set up for the next down with only one or two seconds remaining.  His team is still milling around, not ready to snap the ball.  I signal the RFP.  After several seconds his team gets set and are about to snap the ball.  Just then, the thought occurred to me that he might have done that to conserve time, not just yardage.  Too late.  Ball snapped.  He throws a TD pass.  Halftime.
In the locker room, I'm thinking, "Was that to conserve time or yardage?"  I confer with my crew, and they offer that they think he just threw it away because he was getting buried, i.e., loss of yardage.  Not winding was right (they said). OK, but I just didn't feel really good about it.

Heading onto the field after halftime, I saw the QB, and went over to him and said, "Hey, Ty.  What was going through your mind on that play where I called intentional grounding?"  He said, "Ah, sh--, we're outta time outs."

Just a HS guy.  These guys are smarter than we think.

Shoulda wound it and he wouldn't have had time to snap the ball, and they wouldn't have scored.

Didn't make a difference in the outcome of the game.  They lost anyway.  But, it was still incorrect.

Robert

The philosophy I've always heard is if they are grounding the ball late in the half there is definitely a time element to why they are doing it even if it also involves avoiding a loss of yardage. One of the main reasons they want to avoid that loss of yardage is because they will be tackled in bounds and the clock won't stop.
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