Talking to the TV Officials

[centexsports]

Do you ever talk to the TV officials when they screw up a call?   This weekend, I was watching one of the NCAA games.   On a scrimmage kick, there were multiple flags and the R came on and said there were fouls by both teams.   Illegal Shift on K and holding on R during the kick.   R declined the penalty and would take the ball first and ten from the end of the kick.

My wife was talking to me when this happened and I started talking to the R.  You can't do that, the penalties are offsetting by rule.  She said "Huh".   I told her that the R got the penalty enforcement wrong and why.  She did not care.   

After the commercial, the announcers said that the teams were lined up to replay the down.   Luckily they caught it.   There were at least three more of these types of things this weekend alone.

[Legacy Zebra]

Why couldn’t B take the holding after PSK enforcement? That is a valid option if they decline the ISH.

[DallasLJ]

Any penalty can be declined.  Offsetting only occurs if you have accepted penalties.

[centexsports]

You are correct.   That is a really strange exception to me.   What makes a scrimmage kick so special?   I know it has to do with PSK enforcement but it still seems to be an odd exception.

To the second response:  So there are no offsetting penalties by rule?
 

[Legacy Zebra]

Offsetting only occurs if you have accepted penalties.

This isn’t quite accurate. When fouls offset, it is by rule, not because both teams accepted the penalties. However, there is an exception for PSK fouls or fouls after a change of possession if the team in possession got the ball (or is interpreted to have gotten the ball) before fouling. In this play B is the only team with an option at first. They can have the offsetting fouls by rule, or they can elect to apply the exception for PSK fouls. If they choose the exception, A then gets the choice of accepting or declining the hold. Obviously they will always accept.

Or another situation to illustrate: 1st and 10 from the A-20. B99 is lined up in the neutral zone at the snap. A1 runs to the 50 and is tackled. During the run, A22 holds at the A-40. These fouls (DOF and OH) offset by rule. Neither team has an option to accept or decline the other team’s foul.

[Legacy Zebra]

Maybe a simpler explanation would be that when fouls offset, it’s because they offset by rule. However, just because both teams foul during a down doesn’t mean they will always offset.

[Punter]

The theory here is simple if B gets the ball "with clean hands (before they foul)," B should have the right to keep the ball by declining the penalty for A's foul. 

A would then accept the penalty for B's foul which would be enforced.

[centexsports]

Clean hands does not apply.   Both fouls were before the change of possession and B has DIRTY HANDS.  However, because of PSK enforcement exception, B can still refuse the penalty and take the ball after PSK enforcement.

[Punter]

It depends on your definition of "clean hands (not defined in the rulebook)".  Since the enforcement of the penalty is from the end of the kick and not the previous spot, I think of this as B getting the ball with "clean hands." 

That is just the way that I keep these exceptions straight.  It works for me.  If it does not work for you do not use it.

[Morningrise]

Clean hands does not apply.   Both fouls were before the change of possession and B has DIRTY HANDS.  However, because of PSK enforcement exception, B can still refuse the penalty and take the ball after PSK enforcement.

Clean hands DOES apply. Committing a PSK foul counts as committing a foul after the change of possession, for clean hands purposes.

That's the whole point behind PSK being in the rulebook. Team A already conceded possession by punting the ball away. It's not as if Team B's foul prevented Team A from reaching the line to gain. Undoing the punt and handing Team A 10 or 15 yards was seen as being too severe for a foul like holding the gunner. Better to let Team b keep the ball but wipe out any punt return. In other words, treat the foul as if Team B already had possession, and let clean hands apply if need be.

Note that, in the case of roughing/running into, there is no PSK even though everything I just wrote about Team A conceding possession is still true. The theory was that undoing the punt and giving Team A a first down was NOT too severe, not for those kinds of fouls.

[centexsports]

I think one of the reasons that young officials get confused is because of explanations like the one above.   Clean hands means that team B has not fouled before change of possession.   It can NEVER mean anything else, EVER.   But there is an exception.   If you teach an official the rule and its meaning don't confuse them by saying that it sometimes means something else.   But if you teach them the rule but then explain that there is one exception to this rule, they are more likely to remember it. 

Kind of like a Red traffic signal.   You teach new drivers that you have to stop and wait for the green light.  Then you teach them that on certain right turns or one way streets there is an exception to waiting for the green light.  You don't teach them that the red light is actually green.   

[Magician]

I think one of the reasons that young officials get confused is because of explanations like the one above.   Clean hands means that team B has not fouled before change of possession.   It can NEVER mean anything else, EVER.   But there is an exception.   If you teach an official the rule and its meaning don't confuse them by saying that it sometimes means something else.   But if you teach them the rule but then explain that there is one exception to this rule, they are more likely to remember it. 

Kind of like a Red traffic signal.   You teach new drivers that you have to stop and wait for the green light.  Then you teach them that on certain right turns or one way streets there is an exception to waiting for the green light.  You don't teach them that the red light is actually green.   

Fine if that's how you understand it. If you teach the new officials that PSK enforcements are considered post-possession enforcement then it's still very clear to consider this clean hands. To me that makes a lot more sense than dealing with exceptions and is the way I would teach it.

[Magician]

Why couldn’t B take the holding after PSK enforcement? That is a valid option if they decline the ISH.

It happened very similarly in an NFL game I was watching. The enforcement would have left B/R with the ball at their own 7. Before commercial they announced B/R was declining A/K's foul and would take the ball at the B/R 7 after enforcement. When they came back the R announced the receiving team had changed their mind and would accepting the kicking team's penalty and they would replay the down. Made perfect sense. Until the next punt was downed inside the 1. You just never know.

[ElvisLives]

OK, understand why PSK exists.  It almost exclusively exists to speed up the game.  Before it was introduced, the NCAA had been experiencing a lot of fouls during punts that were having to be enforced at the previous spot, a) giving the ball back to Team A for a repeat of 4th down, or, in too many cases, yielding a new series for A, and b) taking substantial real time to administer all of this.  The Committee decided it was more fair to let B keep the ball with their penalty enforced somewhere downfield.  So, PSK was invented, with 3 and 1 (actually, just 1 and 1) enforcement at the end of the kick.
The issue of offsetting fouls on such downs was resolved by considering PSK type fouls as, artificially, having occurred after the physical change of possession. thus, qualifying for the "clean hands" exception.
This resulted in a significant "speedup" of the game, and everybody has been happy with that ever since.

Robert

[refbuz]

Clean hands does not apply.   Both fouls were before the change of possession and B has DIRTY HANDS.  However, because of PSK enforcement exception, B can still refuse the penalty and take the ball after PSK enforcement.

On scrimmage kicks, "Possession" isn't a literal possession of the ball. A's possession of the ball ends when it was KICKED, not when B actually catches the kick.   Once the ball is snapped, there is an extremely small window for B to get their hands messy on these plays.

[ElvisLives]

Please note that this post was modified by me after I realized I misunderstood the circumstances that create a PSK foul.


I understand that everybody wants to simplify PSK and clean hands.  Would that you could.  But, it isn't simple. There really isn't a "window" (of time) anymore for PSK fouls.  Rather, it is "circumstances."

If:
-the ball is kicked legally,
-crosses the neutral zone,
-and B gains player possession of the kicked ball or is awarded team possession of the ball at the end of the down (i.e., touchback, illegal touching)

then any Basic Spot foul by B that occurs from the snap kick until the kicked ball comes into B's possession, or B is awarded possession of the ball at the end of the down, is a PSK foul.  If Team A gains legal possession of the kicked ball, or is in legal possession of the ball at the end of the down, then PSK does not apply.

And, if PSK does not apply to any B foul, then "clean hands" does not apply that foul.  It might apply to some other B foul.  But not that foul.

Example:
4/10, 50.  Team A has five players in their backfield at the snap. A80 receives the snap, take several steps forward, and legally punts the ball.  B60 then blocks A50 below the waist at the 50.  B90 catches the ball at the B-10, and advances to the B-20 and runs out of bounds (or the ball flies out of bounds, or becomes a touchback, or is illegally possessed by B).
B60's illegal block is a PSK foul.  Thus, Team B may elect to decline Team A's illegal formation penalty, to retain possession of the ball. (This is, in effect, the "clean hands," provision, regardless of how you look at it.)  Team A may then elect to accept (or decline) the penalty for Team B's blocking below the waist foul.  As we have discussed on this forum before, the only time Team A would decline B's penalty would be to deny Team B the opportunity to snap the ball in an extended period, if time in the period had expired during the down.  Assuming the penalty is accepted, the penalty is then enforced according to the 3-and-1 principal at Basic Spot, which is the end of the kick (B-10).  Since the spot of the foul is beyond the Basic Spot, the penalty is enforced from Basic Spot (1/2 the distance in this case), B, 1/10, B-5, Snap (25).


Example:
4/10, 50.  Team A has five players in their backfield at the snap. A80 receives the snap, take several steps forward, and legally punts the ball.  B60 then blocks A50 below the waist at the 50. B90 catches the ball at the B-10.  B90 advances to the B-20, where he fumbles.  A88 recovers the ball while grounded at the B-20.
Since Team B will NOT next snap the ball, then Team B's foul can not be classified as PSK.  So, the only enforcement spot available is the previous spot.  Since Team A also committed a live-ball foul, the fouls offset, and the down is repeated. A, 4/10, 50, Snap (25).


Final example:
4/10, 50.  Team A has five players in their backfield at the snap. A80 receives the snap, take several steps forward, and legally punts the ball.  B60 then blocks A50 below the waist at the 50. B90 catches the ball at the B-10.  B90 advances to the B-20, where he fumbles.  A88 recovers the ball while on his feet at the B-20, and advances to the B-15, where he fumbles and B99 recovers while grounded at the B-15.
B60's block is a PSK foul.  Thus, despite the fact that Team A managed to get possession of the ball during the down, Team B may elect to decline Team A's illegal formation penalty, to retain possession of the ball. (Again, this is, in effect, the "clean hands," provision, regardless of how you look at it.)  Team A may then elect to accept (or decline) the penalty for Team B's illegal contact with the snapper foul. Assuming the penalty is accepted, the penalty is then enforced according to the 3-and-1 principal at Basic Spot, which is the end of the kick (B-10).  Since the spot of the foul is beyond the Basic Spot, the penalty is enforced from Basic Spot (1/2 the distance in this case), B, 1/10, B-5, Snap (25).

It isn't simple.  But it is very manageable, if you just understand and accept the fact that a PSK foul does, indeed, qualify for the "clean hands" provision.

Robert

[Andrew McCarthy]

I think you’re looking at an old rule book. The foul needs to occur during a scrimmage kick. That’s the window.

[ElvisLives]

I think you’re looking at an old rule book. The foul needs to occur during a scrimmage kick. That’s the window.

2019.
Well, I admit, I screwed this pooch, but just a little.  OK.  I had it in my mind that, by "scrimmage kick," they meant scrimmage kick 'play,' which would be from the snap until the end of the kick or dead ball.  However, AR 10-2-3-VII clearly shows that they truly mean during the actual kick.  (That is more like it was in the "olden days" - but let's not get into that.)
I will edit my original post to make that correction.  But, PSK fouls still qualify for "clean hands."

Robert

[Punter]

In my book, this is "clean hands."  However, since the term "clean hands" is not defined in the rule book, you can define the term however you want.  Really, not worth a discussion.  Just get the enforcement and concept correct on the field if the situation occurs.

[brownie]

Kind of like a Red traffic signal.   You teach new drivers that you have to stop and wait for the green light.  Then you teach them that on certain right turns or one way streets there is an exception to waiting for the green light.  You don't teach them that the red light is actually green.   

Check out Hook turns in Melbourne, exceptions are just part of life to allow for common sense

[JasonTX]

Kind of like a Red traffic signal.   You teach new drivers that you have to stop and wait for the green light.  Then you teach them that on certain right turns or one way streets there is an exception to waiting for the green light.  You don't teach them that the red light is actually green.   

No cop, no stop around here.   

[Joe Stack]

I think you have to be careful in talking "clean hands" and PSK. At least in the way I think about PSK and the way I've taught it, and the way I think many officials think about it. The easiest way to visualize PSK is to flip the field around and "pretend" Team B was in possession the entire time. That makes basic spot enforcement a LOT easier. Now, when you start adding multiple fouls and Team A fouls to the mix, you need to pay careful attention to the rule and exceptions.

That's not to say you can't talk clean hands on PSK, but just be sure you're clear. Thus, I understand why there could be some confusion and why we probably shouldn't say there is or is not (in absolute terms) a change of possession (or more precisely when it occurs) as it relates to PSK or clean hands.

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMHO the thing that is most confusing here is that for PSK rules to apply to B fouls, the foul had to occur during the actual kick (10-2-3), not just during the kick play.  That puts the beginning threshold for the B PSK fouls to the instant of the actual kick.  That, the actual rule wording, seems to be then muddled by the AR's which call one holding a PSK foul (within a yard of the LOS - no mention of when the ball is actually kicked) vs. another holding a non-PSK previous spot foul (the pull & shoot - before the ball is kicked).  Are we supposed to be enforcing this "by the book" and be very "accurate" as to when the B foul occurs in relation to the actual kick or not?

[Morningrise]

PSK used to be easier to remember, back when the foul had to be downfield.

Back then, roughing, running into, leaping the line, and leaping the punt shield could be 3&1 fouls, no special language needed.

Now PSK applies to fouls anywhere. To prevent the above fouls from becoming PSK fouls, now they each must have a specific Penalty that states "previous spot, not 3&1."

So now we have to memorize those as exceptions and special cases. In effect, the PSK rule is much more complicated than just what you see in 10-2-3, because additional PSK criteria are scattered across the Penalty statements of every foul that could occur on a punt.

[NVFOA_Ump]

PSK used to be easier to remember, back when the foul had to be downfield.

Agreed, the seemingly non-stop "fine tuning" of the PSK rule has gone way beyond the simple foul downfield days.