Author Topic: Foul after TD (Read 15926 times)

HLTN · « **on:** December 07, 2019, 11:44:52 PM »

It didn't happen on the field, but it was discussed as a possible situation.

A scores a TD. Immediately after the play, B commits a dead ball personal foul.
A accepts administration on the kickoff.
After the ready for play, but prior to the snap, B commits an encroachment foul.
Can A change the enforcement of the PF penalty and assess both fouls?

HLinNC · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2019, 06:39:42 AM »

10-1-1 Captains choice of options may not be revoked.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2019, 06:57:58 AM »

Technically 10-1-1 applies only to live ball fouls, and 10-1-2 applies to dead ball fouls, but we have always followed the guidance that once the enforcement option(s) has been selected the penalty enforcement is considered "completed" and can't be changed. IMHO it would make things a bit clearer if there were 3 sections here where 1 is the "can't be changed" language, 2 discusses LB fouls, and 3 does the DB fouls.

But the DB encroachment foul can be enforced on the try and the 15 yard DBPF must still be carried over and enforced on the KO.

bossman72 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2019, 12:15:00 PM »

Quote from: HLinNC on December 08, 2019, 06:39:42 AM

10-1-1 Captains choice of options may not be revoked.

Agree. Once R announces it's going on the kickoff, you can't change it.

VALJ · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2019, 10:01:03 AM »

As the others have said, the DBPF is "locked in" to the kickoff once the choice is made.

Since the ENC foul occurred after the RFP on the try, K has to take it on the try (or decline the yardage); it can not be carried to the kickoff as well.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2019, 10:11:24 AM »

following on this I've been thinking about a possible rule change regarding PAT (KICKS). I had a few times this year where the defense would rush the kicker but encroach just before the snap and of course I would blow the play dead but the kick would be good and they would have to do it over again.

Does anybody have a way they would handle this differently so as to not penalize the kicker when the defense encroaches? I wish encroachment would not be a dead ball foul in those cases.

Magician · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2019, 04:51:37 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on December 10, 2019, 10:11:24 AM

following on this I've been thinking about a possible rule change regarding PAT (KICKS). I had a few times this year where the defense would rush the kicker but encroach just before the snap and of course I would blow the play dead but the kick would be good and they would have to do it over again.

Does anybody have a way they would handle this differently so as to not penalize the kicker when the defense encroaches? I wish encroachment would not be a dead ball foul in those cases.

The only way to do it is to change encroachment (dead ball) to offsides (live ball). I would support that change.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2019, 09:26:05 AM »

Another possibility would be to apply 9-9-2 :" Unfair Act-No team shall repeatedly commit fouls which halve the distance to the goal line. The referee enforces any penalty equitable including the award of a score."

PLAY: (1) Kick sails through pipes as R encroaches = move to 1 1/2 and replay the down;
(2) Kick again sails through pipes as R again encroaches =

(3) WH to frenzied masses = "We are applying the 'Unfair Act' Rule and are counting the score. The penalty is declined."
(4) Let the fun begin....

$:-\$

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2019, 10:39:40 AM »

I would agree here that if repetitive penalties in the judgment of the R cross the unfair act threshold that this would be a very acceptable solution. Potential problem here though is that the whistle has sounded before the actual kick?

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »

yes, my question exactly. In my real life game situations I felt very badly for K as they made the extra point (and kicking at sub varsity even for some varsity teams is not at all automatic) but because of the encroachment just prior to the snap the play was blown dead and they had to rekick.

I wish in these instances K could accept the play.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2019, 12:55:11 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on December 11, 2019, 10:39:40 AM

I would agree here that if repetitive penalties in the judgment of the R cross the unfair act threshold that this would be a very acceptable solution. Potential problem here though is that the whistle has sounded before the actual kick?

The Unfair Act rule allows awarding of a score even if the score didn't occur....ie...sub coming off the bench to make the game saving tackle OR a kick that occurred after a repetitive foul stopped the clock.

Morningrise · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2019, 04:40:24 PM »

Quote from: Magician on December 10, 2019, 04:51:37 PM

The only way to do it is to change encroachment (dead ball) to offsides (live ball). I would support that change.

Fed seems awfully proud of their blow-and-throw DOF. It sounds like that's never gonna change.

BUT. Another workaround could be:

Let all dead-ball fouls during a try (i.e. after the RFP) be enforceable on the succeeding kickoff, at the option of the offended team.

It's symmetric to both teams (which Fed likes to see when possible) and it doesn't require that much retooling of the rulebook since this is how dead-ball fouls after a try, plus live-ball fouls during a successful try, are already treated.

(p.s. as to how this would work at the end of the 4th quarter or in overtime, I dunno, call that TBD, I'm just giving the elevator pitch here)

bama_stripes · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2019, 07:36:15 AM »

Change “on the succeeding kickoff” to “at the succeeding spot.”

VALJ · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2019, 07:41:14 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on December 12, 2019, 07:36:15 AM

Change “on the succeeding kickoff” to “at the succeeding spot.”

This would keep the existing wording, allowing fouls on a try at the end of the 4th quarter or in OT to be carried over to the next series. I like it. Boom.

HLinNC · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2019, 08:27:37 AM »

Then it is no longer a dead ball foul. You either totally change the rule or you don't. A dead ball foul is blown dead, whatever happens doesn't happen. If an official brain farts and doesn't blow a dead ball foul, the corrective measure is to to go back and treat it as so, not allow the play and enforce from there.

Its got nothing to do with being proud.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #15 on:** December 12, 2019, 09:38:16 AM »

Quote from: HLinNC on December 12, 2019, 08:27:37 AM

Then it is no longer a dead ball foul. You either totally change the rule or you don't. A dead ball foul is blown dead, whatever happens doesn't happen. If an official brain farts and doesn't blow a dead ball foul, the corrective measure is to to go back and treat it as so, not allow the play and enforce from there.

Its got nothing to do with being proud.

I had one last year that I posted and received and received mixed responses :

(1) A @ B's 10, 1/10;
(2) A's pass intercepted as LJ

;
(3) B returns intercepted pass to 50 and is tackled by PFFM

;
(4) B was

for BIB @ B's 40;
(5) LJ now responds to me : " B was 'offsides'

"

I KNOW WHAT I DID....WHAT WOULD YOU DO ....

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #16 on:** December 12, 2019, 10:35:25 AM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on December 12, 2019, 09:38:16 AM

I KNOW WHAT I DID....WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Had a similar situation 3 years ago working as the R on an all MA crew (NCAA rules) in RI (NFHS rules). B encroached and had immediate flag from both wings but no whistle. B intercepted for a pick 6 after which the wings comes to me with "B was offside, they'll decline and take the score".

I immediately went over to B coach and before I could say a word he said "I know, that was a DB foul on us!". So, we didn't really have a problem and had a learning moment for the crew.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #17 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:10:54 PM »

We conferenced and several ideas were suggested.....
(1) Wave off the encroachment flag , give B choice of replay or take the ball after BIB enforced;
(2) Enforce encroachment, then apply PFFM as a dead ball foul;
(3) enforce encroachment and announce that nothing else happened.

[/WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE b]

riffraft · « **Reply #18 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:25:03 PM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on December 12, 2019, 12:10:54 PM

We conferenced and several ideas were suggested.....
(1) Wave off the encroachment flag , give B choice of replay or take the ball after BIB enforced;
(2) Enforce encroachment, then apply PFFM as a dead ball foul;
(3) enforce encroachment and announce that nothing else happened.

[/WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE b]

I am going with 3 and be ready to get all kind of crap from the coach. You own up to your mistakes and accept the consequences

Morningrise · « **Reply #19 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:38:03 PM »

The first few weeks in MA, I warned the coaches before the game that this could happen, and that a big play might get nullified after a ruling got fixed. "Touchdown for you? Sorry. Pick six for them? Sorry. We're gonna follow the new rules even if we get it wrong at first."

I don't think it happened in any of my games, although I proceeded to "decline by rule" a DPI on a successful try on week 1.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #20 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:46:08 PM »

Quote from: riffraft on December 12, 2019, 12:25:03 PM

I am going with 3 and be ready to get all kind of crap from the coach. You own up to your mistakes and accept the consequences

You and I, Riffraft, were of the same mindset. I announced to the frenzied masses : " The encroachment foul shut the play down before it started. What you saw after that was merely an optical illusion. A 5 yard penalty on the defense and reset the game clock to _ :__ ." I put 10" back on the clock, as a guess. Some

, some

, most

, but none asked about the two other fouls. In retrospect, I probably could have treated A's PFFM as a dead ball personal foul and tacked it onto the succeeding spot, but an argument could then arise as to the facemask foul wouldn't have occurred if B hadn't been running with a dead ball. When faced with complex situations, I'm for keeping it as simple as possible and an lured to what's easiest to explain.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #21 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM »

Quote from: Morningrise on December 12, 2019, 12:38:03 PM

The first few weeks in MA, I warned the coaches before the game that this could happen, and that a big play might get nullified after a ruling got fixed. "Touchdown for you? Sorry. Pick six for them? Sorry. We're gonna follow the new rules even if we get it wrong at first."

I don't think it happened in any of my games, although I proceeded to "decline by rule" a DPI on a successful try on week 1.

Anytime, Morningside, that something funky occurs a good response is : Coach, BY RULE...........!"

Better have the coach

at the rules makers, then you

.

ilyazhito · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2019, 01:25:26 PM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on December 12, 2019, 12:10:54 PM

We conferenced and several ideas were suggested.....
(1) Wave off the encroachment flag , give B choice of replay or take the ball after BIB enforced;
(2) Enforce encroachment, then apply PFFM as a dead ball foul;
(3) enforce encroachment and announce that nothing else happened.

[/WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE b]

Even if encroachment were live, it would be enforced if there are no other penalties. This is why offside (other than offsides with contact or offside with an unabated path to the quarterback) is referred to as a free play. The offense gets the 5-yard penalty enforced against the defense, unless they can do something better on the play. Because the ENC penalty happened 1st, the defense does not have clean hands, and so the pick 6 will not count, even without the BIB.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2019, 03:38:45 PM »

My feeling is that encroachment as a dead ball foul is fine in all cases except PAT kicks. With a PAT the encroachment/ subsequent whistle/ and kick are almost simultaneous. In all other cases there is plenty of time to shut down the play as I do when I see encroachment.

I don't know if it is possible to carve out exceptions for PAT kicks but it might be looked at it?

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #24 on:** December 13, 2019, 08:43:02 AM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on December 12, 2019, 03:38:45 PM

My feeling is that encroachment as a dead ball foul is fine in all cases except PAT kicks. With a PAT the encroachment/ subsequent whistle/ and kick are almost simultaneous. In all other cases there is plenty of time to shut down the play as I do when I see encroachment.

I don't know if it is possible to carve out exceptions for PAT kicks but it might be looked at it?

The NFHS takes a dim view when looking at exceptions. IMHO, when this occurs R has not gained anything as :
(1) If the kick failed, K gets a second chance;
(2) after the penalty K may elect to go for two.