Illegal Batting?

[Derek Teigen]

I saw a play during the Patriots/Chiefs game tonight that made me question if there was a difference between Pro and High School rules regarding how this play might be judged by the covering officials.

K punts the ball and before the ball settles entirely it is batted toward the R goal line by K.   The official blew his whistle immediately.

In high school my understanding is this would be first touching by K but it would also be illegal batting but the play should not be blown dead as R should be allowed the opportunity to field the ball if they wanted to and they could take the result of the play of the spot of first touching plus the penalty for illegal batting (10 yards from the spot of the foul).

Comments anybody?

[bossman72]

Correct, although enforcement is off.
If foul is accepted, BAT is enforced from the previous spot or where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B.  This would cancel first touching.
If declined, they can take the result of the play or B can take the ball at the first touching spot.
You cannot enforce the BAT from the first touching spot.

[markrischard]

Fouls by K can have succeeding spot enforcement.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Correct, although enforcement is off.
If foul is accepted, BAT is enforced from the previous spot or where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B.  This would cancel first touching.
If declined, they can take the result of the play or B can take the ball at the first touching spot.
You cannot enforce the BAT from the first touching spot.

Isn't this a 10-4-2 exception case?  ie:  foul enforced from the succeeding spot which would be the illegal batting (also first touching) spot?

[NMWH]

I believe the succeeding spot would be where the ball actually became dead not where it was touched provided the dead ball spot was behind the spot of the foul.

[bossman72]

Isn't this a 10-4-2 exception case?  ie:  foul enforced from the succeeding spot which would be the illegal batting (also first touching) spot?

If you accept a foul, you can't use first touching.

You can't think of the tack on rule like you would UNS live ball treated as dead ball.  They are typical live ball fouls.

So, if you had a UNS on the play, you can certainly use the first touching spot since it's a dead ball foul.  However, the illegal batting is a live ball foul enforced as a live ball foul. Therefore, first touching gets zapped.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If you accept a foul, you can't use first touching.

You can't think of the tack on rule like you would UNS live ball treated as dead ball.  They are typical live ball fouls.

So, if you had a UNS on the play, you can certainly use the first touching spot since it's a dead ball foul.  However, the illegal batting is a live ball foul enforced as a live ball foul. Therefore, first touching gets zapped.

What's the rule reference for that?  I can't find a case where the first touching spot is the same as the spot of the K foul as it is here and since there is no possession by R and K will not be the next to snap the ball.  Isn't the succeeding spot here by rule the first touching spot? 

[bossman72]

What's the rule reference for that?  I can't find a case where the first touching spot is the same as the spot of the K foul as it is here and since there is no possession by R and K will not be the next to snap the ball.  Isn't the succeeding spot here by rule the first touching spot? 

There isn't a specific rule reference for what you're asking that I'm aware of, but if we take it step by step, then there are individual rules for that.

1) Do you agree that acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching?

[js in sc]

There isn't a specific rule reference for what you're asking that I'm aware of, but if we take it step by step, then there are individual rules for that.

1) Do you agree that acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching?

Isn't this covered in Rule 6-1-7 which states "The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is cancelled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul OR IF THE PENALTY IS ACCEPTED FOR ANY FOUL COMMITTED DURING THE DOWN"?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Isn't this covered in Rule 6-1-7 which states "The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is cancelled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul OR IF THE PENALTY IS ACCEPTED FOR ANY FOUL COMMITTED DURING THE DOWN"?

I'm confused here.  The case play has the DB spot and the foul spot as one and the same.  " ….. before the ball settles entirely it is batted toward the R goal line by K.   The official blew his whistle immediately."  That says to me that the DB spot, the spot of the foul, and the succeeding spot are one and the same.  Doesn't that mean that for this specific play the penalty is simply a "tack-on" at the bagged end of kick spot?

Or maybe we rule IW?  And what would be the result of an IW ruling here?   

[js in sc]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the batting foul is declined, R can take the ball at the spot of first touching. 
If the penalty is accepted (and first touching no longer applies) it could be a tack on, but since the kick never ended and the result of the kick is a touchback, the penalty is enforced (tacked on) from the 20. 
If it is an IW, then that is an IW during a loose ball and there should be a re-kick. 
Fire away.

[Ralph Damren]

I believe the succeeding spot would be where the ball actually became dead not where it was touched provided the dead ball spot was behind the spot of the foul.

Welcome,NMWH, to our forum. I hope you find it both enjoyable and informative. IMHO, first touching could only apply if R declines K's foul. Unsure of NFL rules on this, but in case of an IW that occurred while the kick was still a kick, accepting the penalty would require previous spot enforcement. Declining the penalty would require replaying the down. An IW during the kick is treated the same if it is a high airborne kick or a bouncing one - even if touched by K as in the OP  IWs rarely have happy endings .

[PABJNR]

Isn't this covered in Rule 6-1-7 which states "The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is cancelled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul OR IF THE PENALTY IS ACCEPTED FOR ANY FOUL COMMITTED DURING THE DOWN"?

Says the same thing.....but 6-1 is The kickoff and other free kicks, 6-2 is scrimmage kicks, it is 6-2-5 for this particular play.  the options for this play are decline the foul and take at spot of first touching, accept penalty and enforce from previous spot and replay the down, accept penalty and enforce from succeeding spot (first touching ignored).

[js in sc]

Says the same thing.....but 6-1 is The kickoff and other free kicks, 6-2 is scrimmage kicks, it is 6-2-5 for this particular play.  the options for this play are decline the foul and take at spot of first touching, accept penalty and enforce from previous spot and replay the down, accept penalty and enforce from succeeding spot (first touching ignored).

One of the questions seems to be where is the succeeding spot in this instance where the penalty is declined.  I submit the end of the kick is the end zone and the succeeding spot is Rs 20.

[PABJNR]

It’s hard to determine from the OP if the ball made the EZ it almost sounds like an IW, but for arguments sake.....That is an interesting scenario as now R is not taking first touching anyway, they would want to take the result of the play. There was a live ball foul and the succeeding spot by rule would be the 20 YL.  10-4-2 exception kicks in and I think in this instance it would be a 10 yard penalty enforced from the 20.


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[HLinNC]

I've been through the entire game play by play sheet.  There is no such play after a punt listed.  The closest to your description is at 3:58 2Q:


"KC 4-6-50 (3:58) D.Colquitt punts 28 yards to NE 22, Center-J.Winchester, downed by KC-A.Watts."

[Derek Teigen]

I've been through the entire game play by play sheet.  There is no such play after a punt listed.  The closest to your description is at 3:58 2Q:


"KC 4-6-50 (3:58) D.Colquitt punts 28 yards to NE 22, Center-J.Winchester, downed by KC-A.Watts."

it might have been incorrectly entered into the play by play description...but it was later in the 2nd half and I recall that New England was going to try and block the punt so there was no receiver back.....now I was watching a station that was switching back and forth between a few games so it might have been a different game......

[Derek Teigen]

I've been through the entire game play by play sheet.  There is no such play after a punt listed.  The closest to your description is at 3:58 2Q:


"KC 4-6-50 (3:58) D.Colquitt punts 28 yards to NE 22, Center-J.Winchester, downed by KC-A.Watts."

This I think was the play:  4th & 5 at KC 23
(10:17 - 4th) D.Colquitt punts 57 yards to NE 20, Center-J.Winchester, downed by KC-D.Robinson.

The description says the punt was downed by KC-D.Robinson...What I saw was the ball was bouncing around and there wasn't really anybody around it but then A K.C. player who was rushing back just swiped at the ball knocking it backwards BUT I think the ball was still live but the covering official blew the play dead!  Does anybody have access to the replay that can verify if my description matches what actually ocurred because the TV was far away and I might have missed something.

thanks

[Kalle]

This I think was the play:  4th & 5 at KC 23
(10:17 - 4th) D.Colquitt punts 57 yards to NE 20, Center-J.Winchester, downed by KC-D.Robinson.

The description says the punt was downed by KC-D.Robinson...What I saw was the ball was bouncing around and there wasn't really anybody around it but then A K.C. player who was rushing back just swiped at the ball knocking it backwards BUT I think the ball was still live but the covering official blew the play dead!  Does anybody have access to the replay that can verify if my description matches what actually ocurred because the TV was far away and I might have missed something.

thanks

Yes, your description is right on target. What I think happened is that the BJ decided against throwing a bit of a silly flag and called the ball dead before the bat happened. Technically, as per NFL rules as written, this should have been an illegal bat, but a better flag might have been a delay of game.

[Derek Teigen]

thank you Kalle.   This thread has determined that all penalties by R are enforced from the 'end of the kick' and first touching is effectively negated and is not the spot for penalty enforcement.

Question:  If delay of game is 5 yard penalty would it be enforced from spot of first touching?  I guess my question is this:  Is delay a guess my question is this:  Is delay a game a 'dead ball foul'?
 
Of course it is dead ball so enforcement would be where official blew the play dead...

thank you.

[NMWH]

I'm tempted to never say "never," but in this case I'm almost certain a penalty is "never" enforced from the spot of first touching. If a penalty is accepted, the first-touching spot goes away and it's basic all-but-one. I believe that's true.

[Derek Teigen]

I am reading the same but it doesn’t make sense to me.  When you have a punt bouncing around k can bat it forward to avoid the risk of the ball bouncing back toward K!s goal line.  The penalty should be greater than just declining the penalty and taking spot of first touching if more advantageous than taking the previous spot plus 10 yards....

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, R would have 3 choices :
(1) Take ball at spot of first touching;
(2) accept the penalty and enforce at spot where kick ended;
(3) accept the penalty and enforce at previous spot.

Sometimes it isn't to the advantage of the fouled team to accept the penalty, this may be one of them.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Ralph, as a long time NFHS rules guy what's your take on why 6-1-7 is in the book?

[Derek Teigen]

IMHO, R would have 3 choices :
(1) Take ball at spot of first touching;
(2) accept the penalty and enforce at spot where kick ended;
(3) accept the penalty and enforce at previous spot.

Sometimes it isn't to the advantage of the fouled team to accept the penalty, this may be one of them.

Thank you Ralph.  just a point of clarification but under your points 2 and 3...they would be the same spot if R never possesses the ball?