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Author Topic: 10.4.5d  (Read 9900 times)

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Offline BetweenTheLines

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10.4.5d
« on: December 12, 2019, 09:33:30 AM »
If there is holding called on R during a free kick according to 10.4.5d the basic spot is the succeeding spot (R's 20), R's ball first and 10 at R's 10 yard line. I had it stuck in my head that since this is a loose ball play the enforcement spot would be the previous spot and re-kick the ball. Which is correct?
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 09:47:17 AM »
The rationale of 10-4-5 is that these fouls probably didn't have effect on the play. A touchback was probably going to be a touchback regardless if there was holding on the play or not and the basic spot being the 20 eliminated the need to re-kick.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 10:37:41 AM »
I would add to that the NFHS has been doing their best to minimize/eliminate the need for do-overs on kick plays.  This is one of those situations.
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Offline Ump33

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 02:51:20 PM »
I have to respectfully disagree with the above interpretation of 10-4-5d.  I do agree with Ralph in that the foul in the OP did not affect the final result of the play.  However, by rule the foul did happen during a Loose Ball Play per (2-33-1a & 10-3-1a) and I see no exceptions to allow a foul by R during a Free Kick that results in a TB to be enforced at the succeeding spot.  My point being, 10-4-5d was in the books long before there was talk about "eliminating re-kicks."

I have not been able to find the actual year that 10-4-5d was created, I was able to find the following on FootballRefs.org concerning the 1996 Rule Changes:

"The basic spot of enforcement is now the 20 yard line instead of the goal line for plays which result in a touchback"
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2019, 06:18:47 AM »
Doesn't the 10-4-2 exception cover this? This is listed on the "2018 Football Rules Changes" summary page at the beginning of the rule book.

10-4-2 Exception:  "EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."

« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 07:00:42 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Stinterp

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2019, 07:34:29 AM »
Holding by R DURING a free kick, the basic spot is the Previous spot.  Don't get this confused with a foul by K during a kick.  If the holding by R occurs after the kick is possessed then it becomes a running play.
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Offline Ump33

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2019, 08:06:25 AM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on December 17, 2019, 06:18:47 AM
Doesn't the 10-4-2 exception cover this? This is listed on the "2018 Football Rules Changes" summary page at the beginning of the rule book.

10-4-2 Exception:  "EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."
The 10-4-2 exception applies to fouls by K, the OP was a foul by R during the Free Kick.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2019, 10:32:36 AM »
Quote from: Ump33 on December 16, 2019, 02:51:20 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with the above interpretation of 10-4-5d.  I do agree with Ralph in that the foul in the OP did not affect the final result of the play.  However, by rule the foul did happen during a Loose Ball Play per (2-33-1a & 10-3-1a) and I see no exceptions to allow a foul by R during a Free Kick that results in a TB to be enforced at the succeeding spot.  My point being, 10-4-5d was in the books long before there was talk about "eliminating re-kicks."

I have not been able to find the actual year that 10-4-5d was created, I was able to find the following on FootballRefs.org concerning the 1996 Rule Changes:

"The basic spot of enforcement is now the 20 yard line instead of the goal line for plays which result in a touchback"
You are correct, UMP33, that the basic spot would be the previous spot as PSK doesn't apply to free kicks. 10-4-5d was created in 1996 as you said. Prior to that, if A fouled after B intercepted or recovered a fumble in B's end zone and didn't bring it out, the basic spot was the goal line. The penalty on A would be declined, as the result would put the ball on the 15 and a touchback would put it on the 20. With the change, the ball would move to the 35 (assuming a 15 yard penalty).
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2019, 08:09:38 AM »
Quote from: Ump33 on December 17, 2019, 08:06:25 AM
The 10-4-2 exception applies to fouls by K, the OP was a foul by R during the Free Kick.

Probably should have my morning coffee before posting!   ;D
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Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2019, 09:54:31 AM »
Now I have become entirely confused. Do we have previous spot enforcement and re-kick or do we have 1st and 10 from the 10?
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Offline Ump33

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2019, 10:14:02 AM »
Quote from: BetweenTheLines on December 18, 2019, 09:54:31 AM
Now I have become entirely confused. Do we have previous spot enforcement and re-kick or do we have 1st and 10 from the 10?
In your OP, the foul by R happened during the kick = a foul during a Loose Ball Play = previous spot enforcement if accepted.
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Offline Stinterp

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2019, 11:49:22 AM »
If the holding foul was during the kick, then it is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot and rekick or decline and take the touchback.
Casebook play 8.5.3.B (b)  is similar to the original question only R committed a hold rather than an illegal kick, but same ruling.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 11:58:49 AM by Stinterp »
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Offline Ump33

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Re: 10.4.5d
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2019, 12:11:57 PM »
Quote from: Stinterp on December 18, 2019, 11:49:22 AM
If the holding foul was during the kick, then it is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot and rekick or decline and take the touchback.
Casebook play 8.5.3.B (b)  is similar to the original question only R committed a hold rather than an illegal kick, but same ruling.
I searched Case Book 6, 9 & 10 for a case play.  Never thought of looking in 8 ... Good Find.
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