Author Topic: Is this runner down?  (Read 14686 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Is this runner down?
« on: December 14, 2019, 11:04:40 PM »
Thoughts on this, is down by contact the runner being down pre-fumble the correct call here?  I’m not asking to call anyone out, I have others asking me about it (I wasn’t there) and want to make sure I am correct when I respond. From what I can see, this was a fumble.

Leads into a broader discussion of instant replay - I believe this game was played at ACU in Abilene, and video reviews/giant scoreboards are available. Should they be used? I think this is a compelling case for yes... it can’t be ok to say teams have to live with the call on the field this week, but we’ll give them instant replay next week, where the call would probably be overturned.

Why not have a rule that in the playoffs, if IR is available, it can be used?

https://twitter.com/jakewarren8403/status/1205990187152445441?s=21
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 11:44:36 AM by dammitbobby »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2019, 08:20:59 AM »
Not commenting on the down in question.  Just want to clarify that, in contests played following the NCAA Football Rules Book, which is the official rules set of the UIL (with exceptions), there is no such thing as “down by contact.”  By this rules set, the ball is dead when some part the ball carrier’s body, other than hand or foot, touches the ground, or, the ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.  That other expression may be applicable to some other rule set, but it doesn’t apply to UIL/NCAA contests.  Also, note that the term ‘down,’ as it relates the progress of the ball carrier, is not any sort of official term.  ‘Down’ is the unit of the game from the time the ball becomes alive until it is next declared dead.

Offline TXPanhandle

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2019, 10:22:08 AM »
I like Robert’s response. Takes the high road, which is the best place to be. We all know it’s an unfortunate miss that none of us want to have happen. Media outlets are comparing it to the Baylor vs Tech overtime error that occurred. I suspect because both effected a team out of Lubbock.  Let’s just all remember how difficult it is to see the ball in the middle of the field and how fast the play occurs and then realize it can absolutely happen to any of us. This play DID NOT cost Cooper the game!

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2019, 11:47:39 AM »
I’m genuinely asking because some people are saying it is inconclusive; from what I can see though it was a fumble. I agree it did not cost them the game, but with less than 2 min left and immediately led to a go ahead score, it absolutely did influence the outcome.

I’d like for this to lead into a broader discussion on IR and its use. This thread isn’t to bash anyone.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:01:40 PM by dammitbobby »


Offline TXPanhandle

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2019, 11:53:45 AM »
Since the UIL has implemented IR for the championship games I do believe they are going to be pressured to consider the same for semi-final or even quarter final (regional final) games. But, as we all know, it’s not as easy as just watching someone’s video to do so. IR is a complete process that takes experts to administer along with facilities that can accommodate. With that said, I expect nothing to change in the near future.

Offline first_year_guy

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2019, 11:55:28 AM »
I think this crew worked the night before in San Antonio...maybe fatigue had something to do with it?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2019, 12:22:39 PM »
I think sometimes we try to "thread the needle" on these 'is he down or was it a fumble' situations.  I'm no expert and my vision is no better than anyone else's, but I think when you have a tight play and the ball comes out I think it is best to rule fumble and do so consistently.  Coaches may argue that a runner was down, but my comeback is, "Coach, if that player would have been able to stand up and hand me the football, we wouldn't be having this conversation." 

Offline OSU65

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2019, 01:27:26 PM »
As I recall, when the move to institute IR was started it was in response to some very obvious missed calls, and the technical advances such as cameras and computers. Cases where an official was not in position to make the correct, had attention elsewhere, or it was in a scrum. When IR started they mainly involved play where someone watching the recorded play in real-time could "get it right". In other words, irrefutable. Over the years I think that IR has shown that the officials in general are really good at making split second decisions in real-time.

The IR officials should have to make their "irrefutable call" in real-time, but with the ability to see all camera angles for the play in question. Perhaps player safety calls like targeting, unsportsmanlike, and multiple players involved should be given more time, but not those similar to the one in the given example. Hmmmm.....contact the ground.....a blade of grass.....2 inches below the elbow.....loose jersey......

It would be interesting to see how often the folks that grade the officials can look at the play from all angles in real-time, make a call, and then look at the IR to see if the call was changed, not simply stands as called on the field.

Perhaps it has already happened, but if not someday there will be lawsuits because of a call on the field, or an IR.

Between the commercial breaks, timeout calls, and IR the flow of the game is interrupted so often that the momentum is effected. It is now akin to a boxing match where a boxer has an opponent on the ropes when the fight is stopped for a commercial break.

Offline Birddog

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2019, 01:43:06 PM »
As Jason has mentioned, we have the philosophy "when in doubt" it is a fumble.  This may be a prime example of why this particular "when in doubt" is in place.

Offline blindtxzebra

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2019, 06:35:33 PM »
Same crew worked a game the day prior and skipped a down on a series. Went from 2nd to 4th. The fumble is what it is we all hope to not miss something like this, but to lose a down that’s on us as officials.

Offline JDM

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2019, 09:52:07 AM »
I’m genuinely asking because some people are saying it is inconclusive; from what I can see though it was a fumble. I agree it did not cost them the game, but with less than 2 min left and immediately led to a go ahead score, it absolutely did influence the outcome.

I’d like for this to lead into a broader discussion on IR and its use. This thread isn’t to bash anyone.

Question: If there's an IW, which obviously causes the ball to become dead, what's the rule regarding IR?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2019, 10:13:19 AM »
If there is a clear recovery in the immediate continuing action, the recovering team is awarded possession.

Offline Magician

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2019, 11:58:57 PM »
As Jason has mentioned, we have the philosophy "when in doubt" it is a fumble.  This may be a prime example of why this particular "when in doubt" is in place.

I was going to say the same thing. When in doubt it's a fumble. There was an NFL study (not necessarily applicable here) of close fumble/down situation and they found 80% of the time the runner fumbled. That's pretty good odds of getting a close one right.

Also, just because there a video screen in the stadium doesn't mean it would be an appropriate replay tool. You need something much more sophisticated than tat.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2019, 10:54:06 AM »
Which leads me to a question I have been meaning to ask - if you have a call on the field, at a venue with large video scoreboards, and during conference, you happen to glance up and see indisputably that the call on the field was not correct, what do you do? Do you stick with the incorrect call?

Offline JDM

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2019, 01:52:00 PM »
Which leads me to a question I have been meaning to ask - if you have a call on the field, at a venue with large video scoreboards, and during conference, you happen to glance up and see indisputably that the call on the field was not correct, what do you do? Do you stick with the incorrect call?

 :!#

Offline psv

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2019, 03:45:27 PM »
the screen of doom at jerry world is not your friend... but, you stick with the call, in my opinion.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Is this runner down?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2019, 09:44:34 PM »
I see where we had our first (I believe) a replay reversal to a fumble with defensive recovery “in the immediate continuing action” last night.


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