Author Topic: Illegal Substitution?  (Read 1104 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-0
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Illegal Substitution?
« on: December 21, 2019, 12:53:09 PM »
Case Play which I saw in game replay and prompted a quesion.

A is first and goal at the 2 and is attempting a quick snap.  B has 3 substitutes entering.  2 of B leave in time but a third player recognizing he may not make it in time exits at the end zone under the goal posts.

Legal?

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 2613
  • FAN REACTION: +84/-13
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2019, 01:13:04 PM »
See case book 3.7 Comment (5)

Rule 3-7-2

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-0
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2019, 01:19:37 PM »
thank you for that.  I was HL for that game and it looks like we missed that.  It should have been flagged (dead ball foul) for illegal substitution.   The player exiting was behind the back judge so the BJ did not see it either.  But any of us could have seen that.

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1271
  • FAN REACTION: +34/-44
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2019, 11:05:46 AM »
For the Holiday Snowball Award: aWaRd

Take this situation: A trails by 6 points; 4/8 from B10

A is playing fast with clock running late in a half or the end of the game. B tries to sub but cannot get B12 off the field before the snap is made as the clock expires. How should this foul be enforced (if at all) when:

1. A loses yardage
2. A gains 5 yards
3. A scores a TD

 

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-0
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2019, 11:44:35 AM »
For the Holiday Snowball Award: aWaRd

Take this situation: A trails by 6 points; 4/8 from B10

A is playing fast with clock running late in a half or the end of the game. B tries to sub but cannot get B12 off the field before the snap is made as the clock expires. How should this foul be enforced (if at all) when:

1. A loses yardage
2. A gains 5 yards
3. A scores a TD
 

I will try to answer this.  more experienced officials please fact check this!!

In all cases it is illegal substitution and a live ball foul, and in 1 and 2 there will be 1 untimed down.

1)  Foul is enforced from the previous spot...1/2 the distance so 4th and goal at the 4
2)  Foul is enforced from the end of the run...1/2 the distance 4th and goal at the 1 1/2.
3)  Penalty can be declined.  Count the touchdown and the result of the subsequent point after attempt.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 12:31:06 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 2613
  • FAN REACTION: +84/-13
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2019, 04:20:06 PM »
In 1 & 2, you don't tell us if it is a loose ball or running plays.

In 3, a foul by opponent of the scoring team, count the TD and A can elect to accept the penalty on the try, only.  There is no subsequent kickoff, 8-2-2.

Offline ilyazhito

  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-9
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2019, 07:01:53 PM »
For the Holiday Snowball Award: aWaRd

Take this situation: A trails by 6 points; 4/8 from B10

A is playing fast with clock running late in a half or the end of the game. B tries to sub but cannot get B12 off the field before the snap is made as the clock expires. How should this foul be enforced (if at all) when:

1. A loses yardage
2. A gains 5 yards
3. A scores a TD

 
Assuming running plays, the enforcement is as follows.
For 1, the penalty is enforced the full 5 yards. 4/3 from the B5, 1 untimed down.
For 2, the penalty is enforced half the distance from the end of the run (the B5). The ball is placed at the 2.5 yard line, 4th and half a yard, one untimed down.
For 3, the score counts, and the penalty is declined (unless it is enforced on the try).

Offline NMWH

  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2019, 07:37:45 AM »
I believe in 1 and 2 the foul occurred simultaneous with snap. Therefore the basic spot is previous spot. Enforce those two from previous spot if accepted.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3299
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2019, 10:13:30 AM »
I believe in 1 and 2 the foul occurred simultaneous with snap. Therefore the basic spot is previous spot. Enforce those two from previous spot if accepted.

That's correct.  Illegal substitution by rule is a "simultaneous with the snap" live ball foul with enforcement from the previous spot for 1 and 2.  Our guidance here has always been to blow and throw if it's clear that all replaced players will not successfully get off of the field legally before the snap (obvious here since he's exiting across the end line thru the back of the EZ) .

What would we do here if the clock runs out simultaneous with our blow and throw DB foul on B for Illegal Substitution as the replaced player crosses the end line at the back of the EZ and the ball has not been snapped?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 11:12:01 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 250
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-3
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2019, 02:02:52 PM »
That's correct.  Illegal substitution by rule is a "simultaneous with the snap" live ball foul with enforcement from the previous spot for 1 and 2.  Our guidance here has always been to blow and throw if it's clear that all replaced players will not successfully get off of the field legally before the snap (obvious here since he's exiting across the end line thru the back of the EZ) .

What would we do here if the clock runs out simultaneous with our blow and throw DB foul on B for Illegal Substitution as the replaced player crosses the end line at the back of the EZ and the ball has not been snapped?
If the clock is at 0:00, then the time would have expired prior to the snap = game over and no foul

Offline NMWH

  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2019, 05:55:17 PM »
That's correct.  Illegal substitution by rule is a "simultaneous with the snap" live ball foul with enforcement from the previous spot for 1 and 2.  Our guidance here has always been to blow and throw if it's clear that all replaced players will not successfully get off of the field legally before the snap (obvious here since he's exiting across the end line thru the back of the EZ) .

What would we do here if the clock runs out simultaneous with our blow and throw DB foul on B for Illegal Substitution as the replaced player crosses the end line at the back of the EZ and the ball has not been snapped?

The two situations being discussed are similar bu differ in one important regard. In the first, it becomes a dead ball foul immediately when the player steps across the end line. In the second, if he steps across his endzone he has prevented a foul.

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 167
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2019, 06:16:51 PM »
The two situations being discussed are similar bu differ in one important regard. In the first, it becomes a dead ball foul immediately when the player steps across the end line. In the second, if he steps across his endzone he has prevented a foul.
How has he prevented a foul?  Rule 3-7-2 says he must enter or exit the playing field " at the side on which his team box is located".  The end line does not qualify as his team's side of the field.  Leaving through the end zone is still IS.

Offline NMWH

  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2019, 07:34:57 AM »
For the Holiday Snowball Award: aWaRd

Take this situation: A trails by 6 points; 4/8 from B10

A is playing fast with clock running late in a half or the end of the game. B tries to sub but cannot get B12 off the field before the snap is made as the clock expires. How should this foul be enforced (if at all) when:

1. A loses yardage
2. A gains 5 yards
3. A scores a TD

 

I’m sorry, but I didn’t read “exit through the end line” in this situation. I assumed he left the fields legally. 

Offline NMWH

  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2019, 07:49:36 AM »
The two situations being discussed are similar bu differ in one important regard. In the first, it becomes a dead ball foul immediately when the player steps across the end line. In the second, if he steps across his endzone he has prevented a foul.

I see the problem now. I meant to type “sideline” instead of endzone. Sorry for the confusion.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1387
  • FAN REACTION: +37/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2020, 02:53:18 PM »
thank you for that.  I was HL for that game and it looks like we missed that.  It should have been flagged (dead ball foul) for illegal substitution.   The player exiting was behind the back judge so the BJ did not see it either.  But any of us could have seen that.
Just wondering, where exactly was the BJ positioned? He should have been on the end line. Nobody should be able to get behind him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-0
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2020, 01:02:31 PM »
The BJ was right on the end line but he was so focused on the imminent snap he missed the player leaving the end zone as we all did.  In hindsight it was a total collapse by the crew but it did not impact the outcome of the game.  I just happened to see it when I was reviewing the game on film afterwards.  I think the player in question was set up on defense and  looked like a legal defender but then at the last moment exited the field.  I will review the game film one more time and see exactly what happened.

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-0
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2020, 09:02:16 PM »
Just wondering, where exactly was the BJ positioned? He should have been on the end line. Nobody should be able to get behind him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

just a total brain fart I guess....and in the future I am going to try to help out more by counting players leaving the field and entering...as on my side I had 3 players entering and 2 leaving...I could have been looking more closely at what was going on and then maybe have seen the player exiting the end zone but it was just before the snap so I was focused on the LOS....

The backjudge was properly positioned but was not squared up...he was pivoting slightly to the strong side of the formation near the beginning of the play but then he was out of the frame when the player exited to his 'blind side'....so he must not have seen him.  It was a blemish in an overall very well officiated game in my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 09:08:19 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline SCHSref

  • *
  • Posts: 325
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-9
  • In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Re: Illegal Substitution?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2020, 05:57:38 AM »
There can be a subsequent kickoff in the 3rd quarter
If you didn't see it, you can't call it