Dreaming of next year's rules........

[Ralph Damren]

"Tis the season where I start dreaming of next year's rules. I would enjoy your opinions on them.......

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   My choice : YES
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     NO
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  no (small letters = not strong opinion)
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? no
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  YES
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? yes
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  no
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  NO
(10) AFD for DPI ?   YES
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?    ?? (unsure - advice please)
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down     yes
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    ??
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?         NO
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?   NO

I value your opinions on these. Thanks for your advice.

    (7-man crew + chain gang and clock operators)

[Magician]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   I this is a good change. Many are doing it anyway. Even if we ask the captains the first thing they are doing is looking at the coach. Many will keep doing this whether the rule is changed.
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?  Fashion - no. Safety - yes. I still think some of the fashion rules should be there (i.e. shirts tucked in) but I don't think they should be a focus for the officials. Safety things like exposed pads and knee/thigh pads should still be enforced.
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  when QB is in shot gun I like either no low blocks or only from a 3-point stance. It removes a lot of the gray area. I would also support extending the free blocking zone back to the end line for this specifically. That slightly delayed block in shot gun isn't any more dangerous than the one immediately at the snap, but it's harder to officiate consistently with the current rule.
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? No, 2 is fine specifically for legal blocking on pass plays. I would fine to get rid of it or go to 1 also. It's primarily an issue for RPO offenses.
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  Not necessarily IMO. This rule change would only make sense if the games were too long but most aren't. Similar to starting the game clock a little quicker after first downs in bounds though I wouldn't be opposed to it if passed.
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? Does this mean after any kick set it to 25 rather than 40 if A/K retains possession? I'm good with that. I think that may just be a clarification for the actual intent of the play clock rule.
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  Different than disconcerting signals?
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  Yes. It won't happen often but it makes sense to allow it. In 11 years of NCAA I don't remember seeing a QB do this in any game I've worked.
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  Yes. So much easier to officiate than current rule even with 5-man.
(10) AFD for DPI ?  Yes. Also PF/UNS. I don't see a reason to be inconsistent with other levels on this one.
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?   Assume this is similar to the question above. It would not allow teams to traditional run block on RPO.
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down   This makes the rule more gray which often isn't a good thing, but this can still be dangerous for the runner.
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ? Foul would go from 15 yards any time a receiver accidentally steps OOB during his route and make it 5 yards/LOD but only if he's first to touch a forward pass (assuming they stick with current illegal touching penalty). I think this would be a very good change. IP is too punitive for this act.
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?   Yes. Would also need clarification on some fouls being categorized as personal fouls.
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?  Yes. Two best examples are holding by A becomes way too punitive and holding by A when QB is sacked isn't equitable.

[scrounge]

"Tis the season where I start dreaming of next year's rules. I would enjoy your opinions on them.......

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   Doesn't really matter, 95% of us already do this. Might as well recognize reality
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     No, reduce them
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  no strong opinion, but don't see a compelling reason to change
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? No
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  It's fine, but now with the 40 sec clock would prefer not stopping clock on 1st down inbounds
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? no opinion
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  No, encroachment if it happens is sufficient
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  Yes, we already have the requirement for immediate. This is overdue
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  Ok if so but prefer not
(10) AFD for DPI ?    Yes, but not at cost of OPI being loss of down if people dig in on that
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?    No, unnecessary complexity
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down     ok but will require precise definitions
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    Yes, IP is too punitive, just make it illegal touching like NCAA
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?          No strong opinion
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?    Yes. Int grounding would still have its own special enforcement as it does today

I value your opinions on these. Thanks for your advice.

    (7-man crew + chain gang and clock operators)

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks, Magician & Scronge for your input - it is valued. To clarify : fashion police would be responsible for matching color of helmets, facemasks and alike (#3). Any physical or verbal act by B to cause A to false start = encroachment (#7) Turning a gray area even grayer on HC + breakaway = changed my opinion from "yes " to a NO. Thanks

[VALJ]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   

Yes.  Anything confusing we just end up asking the coach, or we ask the player who stares blankly at the coach until we explain it to the coach anyway.


(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?

I'd like to see less fashion police duties, not more.

(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ? 


I'd still like to see the FBZ done away with completely, but I don't think it will eer get there.  The less we allow legal low blocks, the better, as far as I'm concerned.


(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? no

No strong feelings either way


(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  YES

I don't know if 2 minutes is the right stopping point, but I'd like to see us go to less dead time.  YES.


(6) 25 play clock after kick ? yes

No strong feelings either way.  Teams probably should know what they're calling before they leave the sidelines, so... yes?

(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes

As long as B doesn't enter the NZ, A shouldn't move.  No on this one.


(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  no

Some teamsnever takes a snap from under the center.  As long as it's immediate, I'd like to see this.


(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?

Please, no. I absolutely DESPISE this rule in college and the NFL.  The defense does their job, and stops the offense on a pass play, and all the QB has to do is dump the ball to nullify it.  Blech. 





(10) AFD for DPI ?   YES

Honestly?  I haven't missed it.  I'm not sure I've had a DPI where the yardage didn't result in a first down since it went away.  No strong feelings either way.

(11) No ENZ on forward pass ? 

So A ineligibles couldn't cross the line of scrimmage at all?  No thanks.


(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down    

From a safety perspective, yes.


(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?   

So, like the NFL and college?  Where we make it essentially a penalty with no yardage but a LOD?  If so, sure.

(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?       

Not in favor.  15 yards usually results in a first down anyway.  It only seems fair to me that if this goes in, then PFs by A should become LOD fouls, which is ridiculous.


(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?

No.

[riffraft]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   My choice : No real need, already do that
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     would actually love to reduce them
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  In AZ we already eliminate it for Shotgun. Wouldn't mind it only being allow for immediate block in direct snap situation
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? no
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  YES
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? Rarely enforce current timing not sure this would change anything
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  no
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  absolutely under no circumstances NO
(10) AFD for DPI ?   I generally hate all the AFDs in the pros and college, but not going to fuss on this one
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?  As long as the blocker is engaged, not problem giving them 2 yards
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down     would probably eliminate some of the grief we currently get
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    IP for a player inadvertently stepping out of bounds running down the sideline it too great a penalty, so Yes.
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?         NO
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?   NO

[stevegarbs]

sorry had to delete couldn't figure out how to fix all the formatting problems.

[NVFOA_Ump]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?  YES
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ? NO - As long as all required is present and ALL pads covered by Pants/Jerseys
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ? NO
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ?  YES - 2 yards is too short a distance IMHO
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  yes, but I would go with last 5' in half
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? YES
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ? YES, if clear flagrant act
(8) Spike from SG = legal ? NO - no need IMHO
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  YES
(10) AFD for DPI ? NO
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ? NO
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down NO
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ? YES, but this gets into us judging intent
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?  NO
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ? NO, current rule address a foul that prevented a possible/probable loss of yardage, IMHO that works

[HLinNC]

Sadly, I don't even remember how I answered the questionnaire at this point.


(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?         YES
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     NO reduce.  I also like Garbs suggestion that uniform rules be in effect prior to the game.
                                                                                   
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  YES
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ?                                         Sure
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?    YES
(6) 25 play clock after kick ?                              Isn't it already a :25 clock after a kick??
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump ?                        NO
(8) Spike from SG legal ?                                   Having experimented in NC with it this season, didn't see a problem with it.
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?              NO, wings have too much coverage duty to hang around the LOS and U already busy.
(10) AFD for DPI ?                                             OK
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?                            NO
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down     Thought we were done tinkering with this?
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    Reduce the penalty if you must but this whole determining intent isn't
                                                                                                 consistent with Fed philosophy, which they are increasingly going
                                                                                                 away from.

(15) All PF's by B AFD?                                       Can live with it.                                       
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?          NO  Bye bye ABO

Many of these suggested rule changes appear to align our rules more closely with the levels above us.  Changing rules just for the sake of coaches who only want to get their rule knowledge by lying on the couch on Saturday and Sunday isn't a good reason.

[bama_stripes]

"Tis the season where I start dreaming of next year's rules. I would enjoy your opinions on them.......

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?  We already do this but would like rules support
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     NO
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  NO
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? No
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  YES
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? Yes
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  No. Don’t want to get into mind reading
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  YES YES YES
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  NO
(10) AFD for DPI ?   YES
(11) No ENZ on forward pass?  No
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down   No
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?   Yes
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?   No
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?   YES YES YES

I value your opinions on these. Thanks for your advice.

    (7-man crew + chain gang and clock operators)

[ncwingman]

"Tis the season where I start dreaming of next year's rules. I would enjoy your opinions on them.......

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   Yes, since we all do it anyway
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?    No. Although it is still my prerogative to send off players wearing a long undershirt that makes it look like they're wearing a dress, just because it looks silly. Also, 5 yard penalties for coaches wearing crocs and socks.
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  If you're serious about removing dangerous blocks, get rid of the FBZ altogether or greatly simplify the rules so enforcement isn't a pain. My biggest gripe is whether or not the TE is in the zone, which I can never tell from the wing -- can you word it somehow that excludes the TE from being in the FBZ even if they've got tight splits?
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? No
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  As seen on TV...
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? ... is this not already the rule? When would this come into play?
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  Reducing UNS to DOG, sure as long as repeated offenses can still be UNS'ed
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  I had twenty some games this season and it happened exactly once and affected absolutely nothing. It's a solution in search of a problem.
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  Outside FBZ? No. In general, I'm against this no matter how it's worded.
(10) AFD for DPI ?   I'm going No, because the level of play is lower than as you see on TV. Most DPI I call is due to a lack of skill because they're kids, not because of an intentional advantage being gained. Adding AFD makes the penalty disproportionate in most cases.
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?    As far as I can tell, this would only generate more ineligible downfield penalties, as ineligibles are not allowed beyond the ENZ but all other forward pass rules rely on the unexpanded NZ. If that's true, that's a hard no.
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down    Grab, pull, buckle the knees, that's the safety issue. Yes. Grab horsecollar but either no pull or no backwards jerk, let that go.
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    No, unless you come up with a very clear and understandable way to explain what "first to touch the pass" means.
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?  No, makes lopsided enforcement. NFL rules on AFD penalties are based on giving the offense an advantage so they can score more points, since the 0-0 punt fest results in low TV ratings and advertiser dollars. This has resulted in anything the defense does is now an AFD (Rule 14-1-2-5 lists the 10 penalties that AREN'T AFD, and there's a lot of redundancy in there). Fed rules shouldn't be designed with TV ratings in mind.       
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?   Basic spot is previous spot, yes. Enforcement spot, no.

I value your opinions on these. Thanks for your advice.

    (7-man crew + chain gang and clock operators)

[bossman72]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?
We do that anyway.  Might as well put that in the rulebook.

(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?
Kind of vague, but I would not want to police more things

(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  no (small letters = not strong opinion)
Save the free blocking zone!  Rule is fine the way it is.

(4) ENZ to 3 yards ?
No.  I assume this has to do with Ineligible Downfield.  Keep it at 2.

(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?
Yes.  Including incomplete passes too?  Hopefully not.

(6) 25 play clock after kick ?
Yes.  Eliminates confusion on replays.

(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?
Absolutely!

(8) Spike from SG = legal ?
Yes.  WHY IS THIS SO HARD?  No, this is not going to give the QB extra time to survey the field.  HS QB's aren't that smart.

(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?
No, I actually like the HS rule.

(10) AFD for DPI ?
Yes, only if it doesn't require bringing back LOD for OPI.  If so, then no.

(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?
Why take it away?  Do you not want to let linemen down field AT ALL?  That's just silly and flags will increase 10 fold.

(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down
No, because I can see guys enforcing it like facemask with any grab/pull, which is not the intent.

(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?
Yes.  I have a re-written IP rule, but it is too big to get passed.

(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?
Nah, leave it.

(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?
No, but I like my previous proposal of the basic spot changing to the previous spot for runs ending behind the NZ.

[ilyazhito]

"Tis the season where I start dreaming of next year's rules. I would enjoy your opinions on them.......

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   My choice : YES
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     NO
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  no (small letters = not strong opinion)
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? no
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  YES
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? yes
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  no
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  NO
(10) AFD for DPI ?   YES
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?    ?? (unsure - advice please)
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down     yes
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    ??
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ?         NO
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ?   NO

I value your opinions on these. Thanks for your advice.

    (7-man crew + chain gang and clock operators)

1) yes
2) no
3) no
4) yes
5) Yes (Incomplete pass = snap)
6)  yes
7) yes
8) yes
9) yes (unifies NFHS and college rules)
10) yes
11) no
12) no
13) yes
All PFs and UNS by B = Automatic 1st down. Hell Yes!
Previous spot for fouls behind the LOS  Yes

[Magician]

Thanks, Magician & Scronge for your input - it is valued. To clarify : fashion police would be responsible for matching color of helmets, facemasks and alike (#3). Any physical or verbal act by B to cause A to false start = encroachment (#7) Turning a gray area even grayer on HC + breakaway = changed my opinion from "yes " to a NO. Thanks

The only place where I've seen issues with matching helmet colors and facemasks are very poor inner city schools with 17 players dressed. Because they never know who is going to play until they get on the bus we'll have #62 playing QB and #78 playing WR and #42 playing RG. The last thing I'm going to worry about in those games is the color of someone's facemask.

[bjfb]

(1) Able to ask coach on penalty choice ?   Like others have said, most look to the coach anyway. On complicated fouls we explain it to the coach and he decides.
(2) Add to our list of Fashion- Police duties ?     We are already there. Need to put this back on the coaches and let the liability be with them.
(3) FBZ =only for immediately following snap ?  Have not had an issue with this as long as blocks are immediately following the snap.
(4) ENZ to 3 yards ? It's good like it is.
(5) OOB = clock on RFP except last 2' in half ?  Not in favor of adding this.
(6) 25 play clock after kick ? Maybe 40.
(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  I can support this.
(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  Not is favor of this. Opens a can of worms  that we can keep closed by not making this legal.
(9) No IG if outside FBZ & pass > LOS ?  No, keep it simple. We don't need to keep adding college rules to the high school game.
(10) AFD for DPI ?   Only if you add LOD for OPI.
(11) No ENZ on forward pass ?    Need the ENZ, unfair advantage for A if removed.
(12) Still horse-collar if runner doesn't go down   No, must complete the "act" and take the runner to the ground to be a foul.
(14) No IP if unintentional by A but can't be first to touch pass ?    No, keep it simple (too many college and pro rules are being proposed at the NFHS meeting.)
(15) All PFs by B = AFD ? Only is all PFs by A are LOD.
(16) Previous spot for all fouls behind LOS ? Not in favor.

[GA Umpire]

To clarify : fashion police would be responsible for matching color of helmets, face masks and alike (#3).

Does it really matter if teammates are not wearing the same color helmets or face masks?  Or pants?   Shoes?   
As long as they are wearing the same color (approximately) jersey?

[AlUpstateNY]

Does it really matter if teammates are not wearing the same color helmets or face masks?  Or pants?   Shoes?   
As long as they are wearing the same color (approximately) jersey?

Just a suggestion, WE, as in all of us, have no idea what the imagination of the American Teenager (and sadly some of their Coaches and School Administrators) could possibly come up with for ideas about how to dramatize (specialize, accessorize, fashion) team equipment.  Allowing such decisions to be made at the individual "School" level may well be the "Mother of ALL PANDORA Boxes)".

NFHS has wisely limited their decisions to simple "YES" or "NO", which has kept this issue from getting out of hand.  The problem we all seem to deal with is the Schools (Coaches, Administrators) given the opportunity to simply say "NO" are too reluctant to accept THEIR responsibility and simply say "NO".

The answer, sorry to say, is simply the Schools to provide the Teams with the specific rules, and US to enforce them, until the teams, players and coaches feel the bite of not following them.  A couple of "Stars" sitting out an important game because their pants don't fit might help convey a really simple message.

[refjeff]

(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes

Sounds good.  Currently it is UNS, 15 yards, and never called. 

Currently what I do, if A/K flinches I will enforce the UNS.  If A/K doesn't flinch, at the next opportunity I tell B/R what they did and to stop it or it will be UNS. 

[bossman72]

(8) Spike from SG = legal ?  Not is favor of this. Opens a can of worms  that we can keep closed by not making this legal.

What can possibly be bad from allowing this?

[NVFOA_Ump]

What can possibly be bad from allowing this?

I don't believe that "bad" is an issue.  I believe that this is simply not needed and one of those solutions looking for a problem.

[bossman72]

I don't believe that "bad" is an issue.  I believe that this is simply not needed and one of those solutions looking for a problem.

There's no need to prohibit this and would cause zero problems if allowed.

[Ralph Damren]

(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes

Sounds good.  Currently it is UNS, 15 yards, and never called. 

Currently what I do, if A/K flinches I will enforce the UNS.  If A/K doesn't flinch, at the next opportunity I tell B/R what they did and to stop it or it will be UNS. 

Does it really matter if teammates are not wearing the same color helmets or face masks?  Or pants?   Shoes?   
As long as they are wearing the same color (approximately) jersey?

I'm a' wondering if same colored helmets would do away with the helmet stickers that we now see  ? THAT would be opening a can of night-crawllers (big worms). With coaches, boosters, mama & poppa bear (if baby bear had earned plenty of stickers) would rally against.

  (5-man crew)

[Ralph Damren]

(7) B/R tries to get A/K to jump = DOG ?  yes

Sounds good.  Currently it is UNS, 15 yards, and never called. 

Currently what I do, if A/K flinches I will enforce the UNS.  If A/K doesn't flinch, at the next opportunity I tell B/R what they did and to stop it or it will be UNS.

Agreed, UNS is too much, DOG - or possibility encroachment - would be a more reasonable call. I'll propose adding to the definition of encroachment as DOG is a "major clock stopper".

[Ralph Damren]

There's no need to prohibit this and would cause zero problems if allowed.

When this was legalized back in 1996 ,two concerns that arose of expanding to the shotgun was :
 (1) gives QB a quick glance to see if any receivers are open;
 (2) bad airborne snap could be fielded and spiked by QB to prevent sack.

IMHO, those two concerns still are there and a few years ago it was learned that the NFL prohibits the shotgun spike for the same reason.

[HLinNC]

 

(2) bad airborne snap could be fielded and spiked by QB to prevent sack.

Ralph, I follow the reasoning but the current rule verbiage minus what I struck, wouldn't that take care of that?  Or add that it is only applicable in the last 2:00 of 2nd 4th quarters like the elect to start on the snap after a foul provision we added recently.  (I know, I know, another dreaded exception when I ^%$#@ about exceptions.)

EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.