To keep our minds fresh....

[Bigfrizz81]

Hi all,

I was given some practice questions for a study group and figured I'd share a couple for the sake of friendly discussion.


1.) On a surprise onside kickoff attempt from the A35, with 2:22 remaining in the first half, A9 bats the ball at the A44 to the A46 where B6 attempts to recover the ball but muffs it out of bounds at the A42.


2.) Fourth-and-Six on B11.  On Kicker A1’s attempted field goal from the B19, B1 blocks the kick and the ball rolls to the B8 and then bounces backward to the B12, where it deflects off B5’s knee.  Guard A6 then recovers the ball at the B14.


3.) Third-and-Seven on A4.  QBA1 throws a backward pass to Back A3 who muffs the ball in the end zone.  During the loose ball, Tackle A8 clips B8 at the A1.  Back A2 recovers the ball in the end zone and runs to the A2 where he is tackled and fumbles the ball back into the end zone.  A5 recovers the ball in the end zone.


4.) Fourth-and-Seventeen on A33.  Punter A1 sees he can’t get a punt away at the A21, so he scrambles to the A35 where he punts the ball, which is blocked and rolls out of bounds at the A49.


5.) Third-and-Six on B9.  QBA1 throws a pass toward Tight End A2 at the B2. B1 intercepts the ball at the B4 and his momentum carries him into the end zone.  B1 runs in the end zone, fumbles the ball, and the ball rolls into the goal line pylon.  During B1’s run in the end zone, B6 clipped A6 at the B2.


I'm still answering the other questions on the quiz but will place my answers soon. Figured with this sports-less day this couldn't hurt.

[Bigfrizz81]

This is what I think:

1.) B, 1/10, A-42, snap - I figure B should get most advantageous spot due to illegal bat

2.) A, 1/10, B-14, snap - ball crossed NZ and then touched B

3.) Safety, result of the play is a safety due to new impetus by A's fumble.

4.) B, 1/10, A-28, snap  illegal kick, live ball foul that causes ball to become dead 6-3-10c

5.) B, 1/10, B-1, snap - penalize clip ½ distance to goal to B-1

Tear it apart if you must

[Sonofanump]

1) I think that the ball belongs to B @42, K fouled with forward bat, "all fouls except KCI", can we add 10?

[Morningrise]

This is what I think:

1.) B, 1/10, A-42, snap - I figure B should get most advantageous spot due to illegal bat

2.) A, 1/10, B-14, snap - ball crossed NZ and then touched B

3.) Safety, result of the play is a safety due to new impetus by A's fumble.

4.) B, 1/10, A-28, snap  illegal kick, live ball foul that causes ball to become dead 6-3-10c

5.) B, 1/10, B-1, snap - penalize clip ½ distance to goal to B-1

Tear it apart if you must

Agree except 1) enforce A's penalty during a free kick from where the dead ball belongs to Team B. B's @ A-32, snap, PC 25.

Also on 5) be sure to understand that the only reason why the basic spot isn't in the EZ at the end of B's run is because of the momentum exception (10-2-2-d-2-something). If, instead of B1's fumble going OOB, somebody recovered it in the field of play, then the penalty would result in a safety.

[Bigfrizz81]

Agree except 1) enforce A's penalty during a free kick from where the dead ball belongs to Team B. B's @ A-32, snap, PC 25.

Also on 5) be sure to understand that the only reason why the basic spot isn't in the EZ at the end of B's run is because of the momentum exception (10-2-2-d-2-something). If, instead of B1's fumble going OOB, somebody recovered it in the field of play, then the penalty would result in a safety.

I agree with what you said about #5. As for #1, I think it is a matter of philosophy when deciding that what A did was a bat but also illegal touching. I can see an assignor wanting us to go with an illegal touching violation instead of marching off 10yds for an illegal bat in this situation. That being said I do agree with you here.

[Kalle]

I agree with what you said about #5. As for #1, I think it is a matter of philosophy when deciding that what A did was a bat but also illegal touching. I can see an assignor wanting us to go with an illegal touching violation instead of marching off 10yds for an illegal bat in this situation. That being said I do agree with you here.

Well, if it is not an obviously intentionally act, you can pass on the flag, but if you decide it is an intentional act then it is actually both illegal touching and a bat. Let's say the ball goes OOB at B-40, then team B will elect to decline the penalty and take the ball at A-44.

[ElvisLives]

Question 1
If the kicking team's restraining line was the A-35, then B's restraining line is the A-45.  That means that A may not legally touch the ball until it has reached/passed B's restraining line, or after it has been touched by a B player.  In this case, the ball was touched by A9 at the A-44, so the ball has passed B's restraining line.  Thus, the 'touch' of the ball is legal, although A9 commits an illegal batting foul.  (We aren't arguing philosophy here - the statement tells us it was illegally batted.) Subsequently, B6 touches the ball when he muffs a recovery attempt, so that eliminates any possibility of an illegal kick out of bounds.  The ball then travels out of bounds at the A-42, so the ball belongs to team B at that spot.
Let's not forget all of the penalty options, even if only one penalty makes any sense.  1) Team B can decline the penalty and take the ball at the A-42.  Obviously NOT the best option.  2) Team B can have the 10-yard penalty enforced at the previous spot and the kickoff repeated at the A-25.  More likely than option 1), but still not likely.  3) Team B can have the 10-yard penalty enforced at the spot where the dead ball belongs to them (A-42), resulting in 1/10 for B at the A-32 (PC=25/RFP, GC/snap).  This would appear to the be the most likely option that B would accept.

Robert

[MAFBRef]

I believe the ball only went 9 yards (A35 to A44) where it was touched by Team B.

[ElvisLives]

I believe the ball only went 9 yards (A35 to A44) where it was touched by Team B.

Yep, you are correct, sir.  Dang.  Botched that one.  (Sorry, Kalle.)

So, Team B can:
1) decline the penalty, and take the ball at the dead-ball spot.  Foolish.
2) accept the 10-yard penalty at the previous spot and repeat the kickoff at the A-25. Not likely, but possible.
3) decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of illegal touching (A-44).  Foolish.
4) accept the 10-yard penalty at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to B (A-42), resulting in B,1/10, A-32 (PC=25/RFP, GC/snap).  Most likely. I would want my wing to check with the coach and make sure he doesn't want to repeat the kickoff (in hopes of runback for a TD); otherwise, take the penalty where the ball went OB.

That's better.
Robert

[ElvisLives]

Also on 5) be sure to understand that the only reason why the basic spot isn't in the EZ at the end of B's run is because of the momentum exception (10-2-2-d-2-something). If, instead of B1's fumble going OOB, somebody recovered it in the field of play, then the penalty would result in a safety.

I'm bored, so I'm going to be quite technical here.  The Basic Spot would never be IN the end zone, even when the related run ends in the end zone.  By rule, the Basic Spot when there is a change of team possession in the field of play, and the related run ends in the end zone (and 8-5-1 Exception (momentum) is NOT involved) is the Goal Line.  That applies to fouls by either team.  For fouls by the team in possession, the penalty will result in a safety, since the penalty from the goal line would leave the ball in the end zone.  For fouls by the opponents of the team in possession, the penalty is enforced from the goal line.

Just bein' technical.

Robert

[Legacy Zebra]

While we’re being technical...

The Basic Spot would never be IN the end zone

and

the Basic Spot...is the Goal Line

are contradictory given Rule 2-12-2. “The entire goal line is in the end zone.” So saying that the basic spot is in the end zone, while not as specific as possible, is not incorrect.

[centexsports]

By technicality as the rules are written, I give this one to LZ.   But the Goal Line is an imaginary plane that separates the playing field from the end zone.   So if someone handed me the ball and told me to spot it on the goal line, I would put it in down in the field of play with the nose of the ball touching but not crossing the plane.   So with that EL would be correct.

?

[Rostrom]

concernig question #1..
Why no loss of down..?. According to 2-7-1, the free kick is a down, and 9-4-1-c-penalty and 2-2-3-a-2 does not exclude this possibility.!

[Morningrise]

concernig question #1..
Why no loss of down..?. According to 2-7-1, the free kick is a down, and 9-4-1-c-penalty and 2-2-3-a-2 does not exclude this possibility.!

As 2-7-3 points out, "loss of down" means "loss of the right to repeat the down."

The foul is during a free kick. If the penalty is enforced from where the dead ball belongs to Team B, then no problem, the down isn't being repeated anyway.

If Team B wants to enforce the penalty from the previous spot, then... what down would it be, then? Kickoff-plus-one? How would the ball next be put into play? I would say, losing the right to repeat a free kick down is meaningless. It's "in conflict with other rules" (9-4-1-c-Penalty).

[ElvisLives]

While we’re being technical...

and

are contradictory given Rule 2-12-2. “The entire goal line is in the end zone.” So saying that the basic spot is in the end zone, while not as specific as possible, is not incorrect.

Good point.  Technically, the end of the run might just happen to be the goal line.  So, I amend my statement to say that the Basic Spot would never be the end of the run behind the goal line.

This discussion may seem geeky to some.  But, if you follow these conversations, you’ll find you remember the the actual rule much better.

Robert

[dammitbobby]

First and goal at the B-9. A19 throws to A80 and B21 steps in front and intercepts the ball at the B-3. B21 reverses field into the end zone and while still in the end zone A80 tackles him by grabbing inside the collar of the jersey and pulling B21 to the ground. The Back Judge has a flag down for a horse collar tackle.

[Legacy Zebra]

B 1/10 @ B-15 (25, snap)

There was a change of possession in the field of play and the related run ended in the end zone with no momentum exception. So our basic spot is the goal line. The foul was by the team not in possession and not have a specified enforcement in its penalty statement, so the penalty is enforced from the basic spot. 15 yards from the goal line is the B-15.

Same scenario, but B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. Down and distance should be simple, but what about the game clock and WHY is the game clock status what it is?

[Bigfrizz81]

B 1/10 @ B-15 (25, snap)

There was a change of possession in the field of play and the related run ended in the end zone with no momentum exception. So our basic spot is the goal line. The foul was by the team not in possession and not have a specified enforcement in its penalty statement, so the penalty is enforced from the basic spot. 15 yards from the goal line is the B-15.

Same scenario, but B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. Down and distance should be simple, but what about the game clock and WHY is the game clock status what it is?

A, 1/goal @ B-9, 25, RFP -  clock starts on referee's signal to complete the penalty Rule 3-3-2e-4

[Legacy Zebra]

A, 1/goal @ B-9, 25, RFP -

Correct

  clock starts on referee's signal to complete the penalty Rule 3-3-2e-4

Incorrect

[ElvisLives]

A, 1/goal @ B-9, 25, RFP -  clock starts on referee's signal to complete the penalty Rule 3-3-2e-4

The pure result of Legacy’s scenario is a safety, and that dictates the clock.  By rule, when the clock is stopped for a score (including a safety), but an accepted penalty causes the the down to be repeated, the clock starts on the snap. 3-3-2-c

Robert

[Bigfrizz81]

The pure result of Legacy’s scenario is a safety, and that dictates the clock.  By rule, when the clock is stopped for a score (including a safety), but an accepted penalty causes the the down to be repeated, the clock starts on the snap. 3-3-2-c

Robert

You're right. I completely glossed over the result of the play