Incorrect Down Marker

[Derek Teigen]

Hello,  I hope everybody is well.  I was reviewing some old notes that I made it caused me to be reminded of a play that happened in a game that I was the Head Linesman.  Team A has a 3rd down and I don't remember how far to go but they did not make the first down and there was a personal foul on the other side of the field and the referee moved the ball back 15 yards. 

I kept the down marker at 3rd down.  Coach from team A asked me if it was in fact 3rd down and I thinking that team B had accepted the distance penalty and there was a replay of the down told him yes it was 3rd down.  Team A kept their offense on the field but then was told by my crew that it was 4th down because Team A foul ocurred 'AFTER' the play.  So team A  burned a timeout to get their punt unit on the field because some time had already expired and there was lot of confusion.

Thoughts?  Has this happened to any of you and how can I prevent this from happening again? 

[Curious]

I'm sure there have been MANY similar incidents (i.,e not being exactly sure what happened on the other side of the field) occur to MANY of us. You were correct that the "offended team accepted the distance penalty" option; BUT, as this foul occurred on the opposite side of the field from you, the R should have signalled and made clear to you (I assume you were not using O2O equipment) that this was a DBF. 

When the offending coach then asked you if the down would actually be replayed, bells and whistles should have gone off in your head to inquire and possibly stop the clock before answering - if you weren't sure.

By then using an official's TO to clarify the down, the crew could have prevented A from having to burn a TO to get their kicking team onto the field. Once clarified, the play clock could be re-set to 25 seconds and the game and play clocks re-started givingA time to sub .

This is another example where penalty enforcement must be a CREW responsibility.

     

[KWH]

I agree, in this situation, while the White Hat may have many things running thru his head at the time,  you should have only one!  What down is it?

This could be quickly resolved via O2O, HOWEVER, it would be preferable (especially since the coach just ask you AND you were WRONG) to stop the clock and
come in to the R and U which will give all parties a chance to take a breath.

My 2 cents

[Derek Teigen]

thanks for the feedback..yes i see now I could and should have called an official's timeout to make sure of the down.  The game clock was already stopped because of the penalty and it would not have hurt anything and saved the affected team a time out...which the coach was rightfully very upset to have lost and he made sure I knew it.

[Etref]

That and there should have been some communication, either verbal or hand signals via the R to indicate what the next down should be.

Good learning tool for all positions, never assume

[HLinNC]

"Alright <insert ref name here> we marked off 15, was that a dead ball or live ball foul?"   

"Live/dead ball" 

"Ok, we have 3rd /4th down"

As HL this conversation needs to happen EVERY penalty enforcement.

[AlUpstateNY]

That and there should have been some communication, either verbal or hand signals via the R to indicate what the next down should be. Good learning tool for all positions, never assume.

As we've all been told, "To err is human, and forgive divine....but not always available or expected".  In ANY situation when confused about the correct status of a situation, and the "bells & whistles" begin, STOP play from beginning, if at all possible.

Go directly to the Referee, privately acknowledge you've had a brain-fart, and clarify what the correct status should be, privately with the Referee, and any crewmates the Referee decides appropriate.  If nothing needs to be adjusted or corrected, go back to your position, and a simple "Never-mind" will answer ANY/ALL questions.  If changes are necessary, make them, and explain the corrections as necessary. 

Focus on the damage you've avoided, rather than whatever inconsequential confusion was caused, shake it off and get yourself back in the game.

[bama_stripes]

With the down box remaining at 3, the R (if not the rest of the crew) should have caught and corrected this before the RFP. In our pre-game, I always implore my crew mates to make sure the box is right, and to stop the game if there’s any question about what down it is.

[Ralph Damren]

Things to think about on this.......

  White hat should have preceded signal #38 (PF) with #7 (DBF) this would have informed all interested parties that the foul occurred after the play and down.

  If foul occurred after line to gain was gained, penalty would be stepped off and stakes reset for new series.
 
  If foul occurred during the play, penalty would be stepped off - remember ABO - and probably back within old series and replay the down..

[peterparsons]

Agreed. L should have a view of this looking straight down the line of scrimmage. Possibly U as well after spotting the ball and confirming the down with the wings before releasing.

An obvious question to me is what mechanics were the crew using to confirm the down before each play and how/where did those mechanics break down on this play?

[bossman72]

It's very very very important in NFHS rules not to lose a down.  If you lose a down and run a play with the team believing it's X down when it's really Y, then NFHS rules has you go back in time and erase what happened to replay the down that was played showing the incorrect number.  Weird rule, so please never have that happen.

Your story shows why it's important that everyone know penalty enforcement and the rules.  Especially LOS officials, you have to explain everything to the coach just as well as the R could.  If you're not sure of an answer, always just say "I'll check with the R" and verify your answer before you give it to him.  If you do this too much, you'll lose credibility, so make sure you know your stuff.

[riffraft]

Agreed. L should have a view of this looking straight down the line of scrimmage. Possibly U as well after spotting the ball and confirming the down with the wings before releasing.

An obvious question to me is what mechanics were the crew using to confirm the down before each play and how/where did those mechanics break down on this play?

When I spot the ball I usually hold up with both hands toward the sidelines what down it is and always (well with a few exceptions) look at the box to verify I am in agreement with it.

[twref]

Hello,  I hope everybody is well.  I was reviewing some old notes that I made it caused me to be reminded of a play that happened in a game that I was the Head Linesman.  Team A has a 3rd down and I don't remember how far to go but they did not make the first down and there was a personal foul on the other side of the field and the referee moved the ball back 15 yards. 

I kept the down marker at 3rd down.  Coach from team A asked me if it was in fact 3rd down and I thinking that team B had accepted the distance penalty and there was a replay of the down told him yes it was 3rd down.  Team A kept their offense on the field but then was told by my crew that it was 4th down because Team A foul ocurred 'AFTER' the play.  So team A  burned a timeout to get their punt unit on the field because some time had already expired and there was lot of confusion.

Thoughts?  Has this happened to any of you and how can I prevent this from happening again?

Fully understand the complexities of this decision, but why not get on the field mic and announce "there was a miscommunication concerning enforcement on the previous play.  It is 4th down, please reset the game clock (if was running after the previous play) to X, Team A will not be charged a time out and the play clock will begin on my ready for play whistle."

I believe this approach best suits the situation     

[CalhounLJ]

If you have access to a field mic, that would be great. I've only been mic'd at playoff games in my neck of the woods.