Author Topic: Spots Near Line to Gain  (Read 16122 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 475
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-1
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Spots Near Line to Gain
« on: May 07, 2020, 11:58:30 PM »
was thinking during my walk tonight about game situations that might come up.  Picture this as a linesman.  Team A ball carrier is trying to get to the line to gain.  He is angling towards the sideline and the first down marker with defenders bearing down on him.  As a linesman I am trailing the runner and I see his foot step out just BEFORE the line to gain but I notice that he has extended his arm with the ball in hand.  Do you have a rule of thumb about how far to advance the spot in this situation. 1 yard beyond where he stepped out for example?

Then adding on to this.  Suppose that he has extended his arm as described above but then realizing he is going to get hit brings the ball back in and THEN steps out or is driven out of bounds.   Where do we spot the ball in this case?

thoughts?


Offline SCHSref

  • *
  • Posts: 454
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-10
  • In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2020, 09:15:54 AM »
Location of ball when forward progress is stopped. I don’t have a rule (Been a linesman a few times). Now if he extends that ball at the goal line and pulls it back, TD if that ball breaks the plane
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline TampaSteve

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • FAN REACTION: +24/-13
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 01:05:33 PM »
This is a tough one where you have to rely on best judgement.
It's hard to see feet while you're seeing leather too. - which is a good time for a mechanics tip: back away from the field as far as you can. For safety and so you can see things like this better. 
i.e. if you're 6' off the field your angle is only so much (and around the team bench it is what it is) BUT if you're outside the team box area, back up as much as you can so you an get a good, wide angle while still seeing feet and leather.

To answer the question: I don't have a rule of thumb. it seems reasonable the ball will probably be in front of the foot...but by how much??? - depends on runner's lean, etc...
revert back to line 1 here.

 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:08:28 PM by TampaSteve »

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2020, 01:08:40 PM »
One play at a time.  Call what you see.   A good LJ will kill it and tell you if you have a 1D.

 Don't overthink this.

Offline BetweenTheLines

  • *
  • Posts: 184
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 02:33:04 PM »
I always try to notice how long the runners arms are. When they hang down, if they extend below the midway point between his waist and kneecaps he gets the spot. If not then no first down!

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 475
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-1
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2020, 03:19:25 PM »
This is a tough one where you have to rely on best judgement.
It's hard to see feet while you're seeing leather too. - which is a good time for a mechanics tip: back away from the field as far as you can. For safety and so you can see things like this better. 
i.e. if you're 6' off the field your angle is only so much (and around the team bench it is what it is) BUT if you're outside the team box area, back up as much as you can so you an get a good, wide angle while still seeing feet and leather.

To answer the question: I don't have a rule of thumb. it seems reasonable the ball will probably be in front of the foot...but by how much??? - depends on runner's lean, etc...
revert back to line 1 here.

Hi Steve.  the mechanics that have been taught to me have been on sweeps to my side to get behind the play but then follow it hugging the line.  This gives me a good line of sight (most always) as to if the runner steps on the white of the line.  I can get a very accurate spot but I was thinking that in a very crucial point in the game that the runner would do everything possible to extend the ball before going out of bounds, but it would be impossible really for me to mark 'how far'.  That is why I was wondering if anybody had a rule of thumb they go by like one yard ahead of the point at where he stepped out.  It would seem reasonable to me.

I have been told that in most cases to either make the spot short or beyond the line to gain in order to avoid a measurment, but that in crucial moments near the goal lines or where the game is really on the line due to a first down or not we need to be as exact as possible but we need to sell the spot.

 


Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 475
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-1
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 03:25:08 PM »
I always try to notice how long the runners arms are. When they hang down, if they extend below the midway point between his waist and kneecaps he gets the spot. If not then no first down!

I have never heard of this method!  Do I need to "read between the lines" ? :-\?   ???  :laugh:

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2336
  • FAN REACTION: +310/-29
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2020, 08:50:00 PM »
Here's a good tip on sideline plays.

Mimic the runner's path (steps) with your own steps.  Remember what his body was doing when he steps OOB.  That way you can see/feel exactly where the ball was when you saw him step out.
Make note of which arm the ball is in.  Let's say the sideline is to the runner's right and he is angling out of bounds as you say.  Let's say he steps out right on the tick of the yard line of the LTG.  If the ball is in his right hand, he's probably just short of the line.  If the ball is in his left hand, he's probably right on the line.

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 3169
  • FAN REACTION: +126/-29
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2020, 07:17:01 AM »
My KISS suggestion:

If the runner is extending the ball forward & steps OOB within one yard of the LTG, it’s 1/10. (The arm length of a 6-foot tall male is approximately 3 feet)

If he extends the ball but then brings it back to his side, no FD unless he steps out at or past the LTG.

Or, you could use cross-field mechanics & get help from the opposite wing via radio.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2336
  • FAN REACTION: +310/-29
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2020, 10:25:34 AM »
Or, you could use cross-field mechanics & get help from the opposite wing via radio.

I've never felt like I could add any help as the off-side wing in terms of cross field spot on OOB plays.  I have no idea when they went out.  As the play side wing, I would never rely on the cross field spot for OOB plays, IMO.

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • FAN REACTION: +78/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2020, 12:19:39 PM »
Or, you could use cross-field mechanics & get help from the opposite wing via radio.

If the play is going OOB on the far wing and I have a good view of the spot, either a) it was a short gain and the far wing should be on top of it, or b) I'm way out of position and fishing out of my pond as I should be watching for backside shenanigans and not the ball.

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 475
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-1
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2020, 02:32:48 PM »
Here's a good tip on sideline plays.

Mimic the runner's path (steps) with your own steps.  Remember what his body was doing when he steps OOB.  That way you can see/feel exactly where the ball was when you saw him step out.
Make note of which arm the ball is in.  Let's say the sideline is to the runner's right and he is angling out of bounds as you say.  Let's say he steps out right on the tick of the yard line of the LTG.  If the ball is in his right hand, he's probably just short of the line.  If the ball is in his left hand, he's probably right on the line.

thanks Bossman..that's good stuff and I will use it. 

Offline Derek Teigen

  • *
  • Posts: 475
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-1
  • Committed to the game; safety and sportsmanship
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2020, 02:39:32 PM »
My KISS suggestion:

If the runner is extending the ball forward & steps OOB within one yard of the LTG, it’s 1/10. (The arm length of a 6-foot tall male is approximately 3 feet)

If he extends the ball but then brings it back to his side, no FD unless he steps out at or past the LTG.

Or, you could use cross-field mechanics & get help from the opposite wing via radio.

thanks Bama...that confirms what I thought was a reasonable estimate of yardage to give when extending the arm.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4521
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-187
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2020, 02:57:56 PM »
The concept of cross-field mechanics is not only accepted, but encouraged, at all levels of football. As these things typically do, this migrated out from the NFL to the NCAA to high school. Properly, and judiciously used, it can make our jobs quite easier, and make us more effective. But, as with most things, there are times it should be used, and times it should not be used. It should not become a crutch, or a way of 'easing' up on our individual efforts. Cross-field officiating should be used only when the off-side official has a good look at the action, and can offer a reasonably good spot, if not 100% accurate.  Action at the line-to-gain is not, typically, a good use of cross-field.  In those cases, the near-side official simply must do what he must to get a good look at the spot, and make a judgment on the OB spot. In what should be a rare case of the near-side official getting tripped up or otherwise greatly impeded from getting a good look at the action, there is little choice but to check with the off-side guy. It is either that or guess - and we don't like guessing.
In those cases that do not involve the line-to-gain, and the near-side guy gets pushed away from the action and doesn't get a good look, the off-sided guy should be able to offer a spot.  Of course, all officials should prioritize player-on-player action, and that may prevent the off-side guy from getting a look.  But, the vast majority of times, the off-side wing should be able to get a look at the action going OB on the opposite side of the field, and be there to offer a spot, if needed.
I will never forget this.  In my earlier FBS days, when I was an F, Team A punted, and the B receiver caught the ball, and advanced several yards, running OB on the opposite sideline.  Just as the S was beginning to mark the spot, opponents that had followed the BC out of bounds started getting "chummy" with the BC, and the S - quite properly - left his spot quickly to separate the players, and prevent any UNR or UNS. When he completed those efforts - successfully - he turned back toward the field of play (now some 5-yards "north" of where the BC crossed the sideline).  The look on his face was just short of 'horror' when he realized he didn't know the OB spot (no, he hadn't taken the moment to drop a spot marker). His eyes turned to me, across the field, where I, very comfortingly, was calmly holding and tapping my leg at the yard line where I believe the ball crossed the sideline.  The look of relief on his face was what I will never forget.  In that moment, we both fully realized the value of cross-field officiating.

Cross-field officiating.  Use it.  Don't abuse it.   

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4843
  • FAN REACTION: +344/-1000
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2020, 03:03:09 PM »
I've never felt like I could add any help as the off-side wing in terms of cross field spot on OOB plays.  I have no idea when they went out.  As the play side wing, I would never rely on the cross field spot for OOB plays, IMO.

I've learned when the goal line becomes an acute factor (10 yl in), my first concern is the area behind me, OOB to and along the side of the EZ. this area can be magnet drawing unnecessary bodies (special spectators, press & camera people, security, non-player attendants, substitutes, coaches, cheer leaders, etc.) who ALL want to be as close to the sideline/goal intersection as possible.  So my initial response, as long as possible BEFORE any huddle breaks, is to clear the area behind me, and verify it is restricted. (If people won't move, I'll stop EVERYTHING until they do.)

The closer to the goal line the more important "getting to the goal and officiating back to the ball" becomes.  A lesson, long ago painfully learned: Young, athletic people running forward, move a lot faster than older adults moving backwards.  but my eyesight spanning 10 to even 15 yards is the same end to end.  Initially breaking to the goal line as quickly as possible, and concentrating back to the play still provides ample opportunity to move towards the play, if it goes in another direction, but allows you to see both the ball and the sideline all the way to, and past, the goal line (extended). 

If the play is moving towards the sideline, my direction to the goal, leans deeper into the sideline (where I previously confirmed there are no obstructions), and when ANYTHING (ball or body part) crosses the goal, I'm in position to see it, and the sideline approaching the goal line to view any contact with it, before I've judged the ball to have penetrated to goal line (plane).

Clearing that OOB area before the snap is critical, because if you encounter unexpected congestion, little else is going to go as planned.   

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2336
  • FAN REACTION: +310/-29
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2020, 09:41:19 PM »
I will never forget this.  In my earlier FBS days, when I was an F, Team A punted, and the B receiver caught the ball, and advanced several yards, running OB on the opposite sideline.  Just as the S was beginning to mark the spot, opponents that had followed the BC out of bounds started getting "chummy" with the BC, and the S - quite properly - left his spot quickly to separate the players, and prevent any UNR or UNS. When he completed those efforts - successfully - he turned back toward the field of play (now some 5-yards "north" of where the BC crossed the sideline).  The look on his face was just short of 'horror' when he realized he didn't know the OB spot (no, he hadn't taken the moment to drop a spot marker). His eyes turned to me, across the field, where I, very comfortingly, was calmly holding and tapping my leg at the yard line where I believe the ball crossed the sideline.  The look of relief on his face was what I will never forget.  In that moment, we both fully realized the value of cross-field officiating.

Cross-field officiating.  Use it.  Don't abuse it.   

Great work on this play.

I would like to differentiate your play vs ones we were talking about previously.
The previous plays when we say "cross field soft spot", this involves making a judgment of where you think the spot should be and the play side wing is using your judgment in place of his.
In your play, I would categorize this as "matching up" with your opposite wing, which is also an important part of cross field mechanics.  I doubt you made a judgement on where the runner crossed the sideline, but you saw where the S paused to mark the spot and you matched up with him as he ran off to break up shenanigans.  This is why matching up is very important and a great example to illustrate it!

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 3044
  • FAN REACTION: +141/-1010
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2020, 07:09:52 AM »
https://youtu.be/x5X1cElgBo4
Just don’t do this.

Offline Mississippi H

  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Hi Mom!!!!!
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2020, 05:50:16 PM »
Hope you are not an Ole Miss fan, ouch.  Heck of a spot.  Shouldn't you be a Calhoun R by now.  lol

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 3169
  • FAN REACTION: +126/-29
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2020, 06:08:46 PM »
https://youtu.be/x5X1cElgBo4
Just don’t do this.

Looks bad, but frame-by-frame shows the spot was correct.   >:D

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 3044
  • FAN REACTION: +141/-1010
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2020, 06:35:38 PM »
Hope you are not an Ole Miss fan, ouch.  Heck of a spot.  Shouldn't you be a Calhoun R by now.  lol
Lol. I am an R now. Just haven’t changed my screen name.  I’m a rebel too.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 3044
  • FAN REACTION: +141/-1010
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2020, 06:37:34 PM »
Looks bad, but frame-by-frame shows the spot was correct.   >:D
True, but the bad optics trumped the call.  Which is why the way we officiate is as important sometimes as the calls we make. If it looks bad, it is.

Offline dch

  • *
  • Posts: 160
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-1
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 04:49:36 PM »
Back to the original question -- How to get the correct spot when the runner goes out of bounds.
A)  For sure we can't look to the Umpire for help as his depth perception is suspect at best -- our mechanics state that he can't even tell if the ball breaks the plane of the goal line when it happens right in front of him.
B)  Definitely look to the Referee as this should be easy for him since he can locate the exact spot a punt in flight crosses the side line --  no matter that he might be 40 yards behind and way across the field.
  hEaDbAnG  pi1eOn

Offline GA Umpire

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 386
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-3
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 04:56:03 PM »
Back to the original question -- How to get the correct spot when the runner goes out of bounds.
A)  For sure we can't look to the Umpire for help as his depth perception is suspect at best -- our mechanics state that he can't even tell if the ball breaks the plane of the goal line when it happens right in front of him.
B)  Definitely look to the Referee as this should be easy for him since he can locate the exact spot a punt in flight crosses the side line --  no matter that he might be 40 yards behind and way across the field.
  hEaDbAnG  pi1eOn

 LOL    :thumbup

Offline SCline

  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-1
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 09:03:47 PM »
Back to the original question -- How to get the correct spot when the runner goes out of bounds.
A)  For sure we can't look to the Umpire for help as his depth perception is suspect at best -- our mechanics state that he can't even tell if the ball breaks the plane of the goal line when it happens right in front of him.
B)  Definitely look to the Referee as this should be easy for him since he can locate the exact spot a punt in flight crosses the side line --  no matter that he might be 40 yards behind and way across the field.
  hEaDbAnG  pi1eOn

This is one of the funniest posts here in a while

Offline PABJNR

  • *
  • Posts: 201
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-3
  • When a whistle stops a play it is inadvertent
Re: Spots Near Line to Gain
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2020, 05:25:18 AM »
True, but the bad optics trumped the call.  Which is why the way we officiate is as important sometimes as the calls we make. If it looks bad, it is.
This brings up a thought....is it better to look bad as a crew but be correct or look good as a crew and be wrong?  Is this a situational decision?  This can be an interesting and thought provoking question when does optics trump call correctness, when does a crew member jump in and correct a call, even if it looks bad.

PS Calhoun I totally agree with your statement, but I think there are times as an official you have to make a hard decision to bite the bullet knowing this is going to look bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!