Spotting the Ball

[Derek Teigen]

Another question on spotting the ball when a player is diving out of bounds.  Take a look at this play and tell me what you think.  My question is if a player launches himself airborne while in bounds but lands out of bounds where do you spot the ball?   https://thecomeback.com/nfl/no-one-knows-spot-football.html#:~:text=Runner%20Out%20of%20Bounds.,player%20is%20out%20of%20bounds.

[ncwingman]

As the rule was quoted in that article, the ball is placed at the foremost spot of the ball as the ball crosses the sideline.

In reality, you'd need an absolute overhead shot to know for certain where the ball is when it crosses the plane of the sideline, so you have to use your judgement to spot the ball. That's why they pay us the big bucks.

I mean, it's not a lot of bucks, but the font is very large.

It would most certainly cost a lot more bucks to install a multi-camera system to track the ball in space, like Hawk-Eye, but I don't know if that works well for the ball held in a player's hand and not in a free trajectory.

[Derek Teigen]

thank you Wingman.    If the ball crossing the line is the determining factor in the above example then what happens in cases where a player is running down the sideline, avoid tackles and keeps his feet in bounds but in the process extends his arm (and the ball) across the sideline?  We would not blow the play the dead in this case.  So why in the above case are we saying the foremost point of the ball when the ball crosses the plane of the sideline?   

What are we as linesmen looking for in these type of plays?  Does anybody have any rules of thumb they use to help determine the spot.  In most cases I would be behind this play.  On sweeps to my side our mechanics suggest we drift "upfield" to let the runner get ahead of me and then I would follow the play downfield.

[HLinNC]

 We aren't out there working with lasers and NASA level machining tolerances.  We get a spot based on what we see at the time.   How do you judge when to turn in traffic?  How do you line up a hammer with a nail?  You utilize your God given senses to judge space and time.  Its not meant to be perfect nor is it a physics class.

Reading Rule 2 is a great place to start if you are jammed up on a question.

[js in sc]

thank you Wingman.    If the ball crossing the line is the determining factor in the above example then what happens in cases where a player is running down the sideline, avoid tackles and keeps his feet in bounds but in the process extends his arm (and the ball) across the sideline?  We would not blow the play the dead in this case.  So why in the above case are we saying the foremost point of the ball when the ball crosses the plane of the sideline?   

What are we as linesmen looking for in these type of plays?  Does anybody have any rules of thumb they use to help determine the spot.  In most cases I would be behind this play.  On sweeps to my side our mechanics suggest we drift "upfield" to let the runner get ahead of me and then I would follow the play downfield.

The ball is not OOB until the runner is OOB.  Therefore, the ball held OOB while the runner is inbounds is of no consequence.  The question is "where does the ball cross the line when the runner is declared OOB".

[Derek Teigen]

The ball is not OOB until the runner is OOB.  Therefore, the ball held OOB while the runner is inbounds is of no consequence.  The question is "where does the ball cross the line when the runner is declared OOB".

A runner is declared out of bounds when any part of his body touches the sideline or beyond.  So that is my question I guess is if a runner is diving out of bounds then his body does not touch the ground until he is well out of bounds in some cases.  Do we spot the ball parallel to where the ball is  when the runner lands out of bounds then?

[Derek Teigen]

We aren't out there working with lasers and NASA level machining tolerances.  We get a spot based on what we see at the time.   How do you judge when to turn in traffic?  How do you line up a hammer with a nail?  You utilize your God given senses to judge space and time.  Its not meant to be perfect nor is it a physics class.

Reading Rule 2 is a great place to start if you are jammed up on a question.

ok got it.  I did read Rule 2 on spots and I guess what I am coming up with is if a runner is diving out of bounds then the spot is where the ball is when the runner first starts to cross the plane of the sideline.  I was getting hung up on things like at what point is he considered out of bounds, if all of the body is out of bounds (in the air) or does it just have to be any part of the body?  I am thinking this is the toughest call to make.  Many times I have seen runners out of bounds in the air but they are holding the ball well out in front of them and the official gives them that spot.  Sometimes the ball is held out at the last moment even after the runner has crossed the sideline in the air and they are given the spot at where the ball was held.   I am wondering if any of you have any rules of thumb for this play so we can get the best spot possible in these situations.  I do understand this is a judgement.

[HLinNC]

Try looking at 4-3-3

[Derek Teigen]

Try looking at 4-3-3

ART. 3 . . . When a runner goes out of bounds, the nearest hash mark is
fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time
the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

what does this mean actually?

[HLinNC]

When a runner goes out of bounds, the nearest hash mark is
fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time
the runner crosses the plane of the sideline.

[Derek Teigen]

So if a runner is running along the sideline and he dives straigth ahead in an effort to gain more yardage (picture a runner about to get hit and he launches himself forward).  If lands "in bounds" then the spot is fairly straightforward.  But if he lands out of bounds then my understanding is we can spot where the ball was when any part of the runners body first breaks that sideline plane, which could be quite a ways before where the player actually lands.

[Derek Teigen]

in looking at the video I think the sideline judge probably got the spot right and maybe was a little generous but still short of the first down.

[HLinNC]

spot where the ball was when any part of the runners body first breaks that sideline plane, which could be quite a ways before where the player actually lands.

Usually its not more than a yard or two.  Traffic and defenders will inhibit any sort of dramatic flight.

[VALJ]

thank you Wingman.    If the ball crossing the line is the determining factor in the above example then what happens in cases where a player is running down the sideline, avoid tackles and keeps his feet in bounds but in the process extends his arm (and the ball) across the sideline?  We would not blow the play the dead in this case.  So why in the above case are we saying the foremost point of the ball when the ball crosses the plane of the sideline?   

The difference is that while he's running down the sideline, he's still touching the ground in the field of play, keeping his position.  When he's airborne he's not touching the ground, so he's in that "in between" state where by rule he's in bounds, but he's not physically established in bounds. (And yes, I know that's not a rulebook term.)  Technically, when he runs out of bounds, the ball becomes dead at the spot it physically crosses the sideline as well, but when he's running, that's basically the same spot.  When he jumps, he could end up a couple of yards from where he crosses the sideline, so it can make a difference.

[CalhounLJ]

So if a runner is running along the sideline and he dives straigth ahead in an effort to gain more yardage (picture a runner about to get hit and he launches himself forward).  If lands "in bounds" then the spot is fairly straightforward.  But if he lands out of bounds then my understanding is we can spot where the ball was when any part of the runners body first breaks that sideline plane, which could be quite a ways before where the player actually lands.

Actually, it's the point where the BALL breaks the sideline plane.

[Derek Teigen]

Actually, it's the point where the BALL breaks the sideline plane.

I am just realizing that I may not have a good understanding where to spot the ball on a play that goes out of bounds.  Normally I look for the feet and if the runner touches the white line I will spot the ball exactly where the runner had stepped out.  If the runner is running out of bounds then I would normally eyeball it and give him a little bit ahead of where the last 'inbounds' step was...(unless running laterally).

Am I correct to say that as long as the ball stays in the field of play the ball would be spotted where the runner first contacts the ground 'out of bounds'?

[HLinNC]

You seem to make this much more difficult that it is.  See attached.



https://imgur.com/a/WUyPpTI

[Derek Teigen]

You seem to make this much more difficult that it is.  See attached.



https://imgur.com/a/WUyPpTI

thanks that is a helpfull illustration.  So the 'spot' of the ball is the foremost part of the ball when the runner steps out of bounds.  If the runner is diving forward and has not contacted anything out of bounds and assuming he lands out of bounds then the 'spot' of the ball is where the ball initially crossed the sideline.

The other thing I will be working on this year is to NOT BE SO FOCUSED ON THE SPOT that I miss things that are going after the play has blown dead.  I'll get the spot but keep my head up to see what is going on in the sideline area....bean bag my spot if I have to leave to follow players into the bench or sideline area.

Thanks for the help.