False start?

[Brian26]

Running back gets in a three point stance, after everyone is set and during QB cadence running back gets out three point stance and goes in motion. Is that legal or considered a false start.

[Snapper]

That's legal, just as long as he doesn't simulate action at the snap.

[AlUpstateNY]

Running back gets in a three point stance, after everyone is set and during QB cadence running back gets out three point stance and goes in motion. Is that legal or considered a false start.

YOUR judgment call.  Vast majority of the time, the back's initial step will be forward, before going in motion either way.  As long as that initial step is appropriate, not exaggerated or artificially explosive AND there is no instant reaction by the defense (that YOU judge to be artificially motivated), and the action by the back is consistent with similar behavior in similar previous situations there's likely no foul either way (when the defender didn't violate the NZ)

However, (Often coincidentally to critical short yardage situations, or when the back suddenly and dramatically explodes out of his set position, for that 1st step, before going in motion either way, judging the initial movement to be deliberate and potentially intended to draw a defender into the NZ, judging the action as a false start (whether or NOT it successfully drew the defense into the NZ, is an appropriate call).  Even when the defense does NOT react, recognizing the intent with a flag, is very likely to eliminate repeated attempts during the contest (by either team).

When that initial movement by the back, does draw the defense into violating the NZ, YOU have to judge whether the violation was caused by the defensive player's anticipation, or the movement of the offensive back, that "drew", the defensive player (whether intentionally, or NOT) into the NZ

[NVFOA_Ump]

2, 3, or 4 point stance has no bearing here.  As Al correctly notes, the only issue here is the actual motion by the back.  If in your judgment the back has made an initial motion that simulates the start of the play and is not a smooth continuous motion then throw the flag.

[bossman72]

Sometimes I see R's pass on false starts by RB's because they think it's "motion" (or call it illegal motion if it was at the snap).  If it's a jerkey movement and you can tell he missed the snap count, shut it down for false start.

[BetweenTheLines]

Let me enter this one for discussion!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sVotNoYUsH3G4x8JA

[NVFOA_Ump]

  - That's a false start.  Cannot have any abrupt motion that potentially is simulating the start of a play.  Here it's pretty clear that the QB's movements are planned since there is no snap and he turns toward the bench after "faking" the snap.  IMHO this has to draw a flag.

[Derek Teigen]

- That's a false start.  Cannot have any abrupt motion that potentially is simulating the start of a play.  Here it's pretty clear that the QB's movements are planned since there is no snap and he turns toward the bench after "faking" the snap.  IMHO this has to draw a flag.

Hello  Between the Lines and NVFOA_Ump.  That was an interesting video clip and I am not sure I would flag that as a false start.  More likely a  dead ball encroachment on the defense.  I think the defensive lineman was probably drawn off side by the cadence of the quarterback

[refjeff]

No one on defense should be looking at the QB's head and hands before the snap, especially a nose-tackle whose eyes should be on the ball.

Just sayin'.

[AlUpstateNY]

Hello  Between the Lines and NVFOA_Ump.  That was an interesting video clip and I am not sure I would flag that as a false start.  More likely a  dead ball encroachment on the defense.  I think the defensive lineman was probably drawn off side by the cadence of the quarterback 

Are you serious? When an unexpectedly sharp movement is combined with an equally abrupt and exaggerated cadence, the odds jump from 50/50 to 99/01 that drawing the defense into the neutral zone was an intended result. 

The antidote to effectively preventing such nonsense from persisting each time there's a "short yardage" advantage to be gained, is alert the QB you are NOT going to buy into the attempt, whether it's successful OR NOT, and he will bear the consequences, EACH TIME, the very 1st time it's attempted. 

[Derek Teigen]

I will have to ask our association what our stance would be on this play.  It is a judgement call   In the  video clip that is shown we don't know if this clap by the quarterback is something he consistently does  or if it was just to draw the defense off sides in a short yardage situation.   

We see this clap snap in college ball all the time and I've never seen the offense penalized for a false start but I know high school rules can differ so I  understand your stance that you would flag it the first time. 

Obviously when a defender enters the neutral zone there has to be a flag but to determine if he was drawn off sides by the clapping?  I don't believe most of the linemen would see that.  They would hear it though.

[HLinNC]

That's not a clap, that's a false start.  It was an act intended to cause B to encroach. 7-1-7b

[js in sc]

If the QB had been doing this on every snap before this, then I may let it go.  On short yardage plays, with no previous actions like this, it is on the QB and I would flag him.

[Derek Teigen]

That's not a clap, that's a false start.  It was an act intended to cause B to encroach. 7-1-7b

If the defensive lineman had not encroached would you still flag it as false start?

[HLinNC]

Depends.  If I warned him earlier about it, yes.  If this was his first offense and no jump by the D, then I'd do a "talk-to".

[ncwingman]

If the defensive lineman had not encroached would you still flag it as false start?

This is definitely a "I'd have to see it" call.

If the QB claps to signal the snap all game, but then goes "on two" sometime in the 4th quarter -- but it's the same clap he's done all game, if the D jumps, that's on the defense. Functionally, this is no different than the QB saying "Hut".

If the QB exaggerates the fake clap much more than his previous clapping, then that's a false start regardless of whether the D jumps. Same with a verbal call -- if the fake snap is louder or more abrupt and he moves a bit more than usual, that's a false start.

Where's the line between "What he's been doing all game" and "Overly exaggerating to draw the D off"? Well... I'd have to see it.

[AlUpstateNY]

We see this clap snap in college ball all the time and I've never seen the offense penalized for a false start but I know high school rules can differ so I  understand your stance that you would flag it the first time. 

Allow me to clarify, Derek; regarding the "first time", I would speak to the QB, not necessarily flag him, that would depend on whether the defensive player encroached into the NZ AND how abrupt I judged the QB's motion.  However, either way (flag or not) I'd mention to the QB his action was potentially problematic, FOR HIM.

After that it's entirely up to the QB to adjust, or risk consequences.  "Forewarned, should be forearmed"

[yarnnelg]

He exaggerated a head bob. The clap means nothing. Everything else he did gets the false start flag. As a Quarterback, we worked and worked on voice increase without bobbing the head. If he goes under center and exaggerates the bob,,...flag him. He gets the same flag in shotgun.

[CalhounLJ]

If we call this a false start we have effectively made a new rule eliminating what is commonly referred to as “on 2.”  Football QBs have routinely “faked the snap count” for years by using the term hut-hut. Or some similar verbiage. So, all who advocate for a false start here, are you going to throw the flag for a double hug? Because the first Hut is obviously meant to do what this did.

[AlUpstateNY]

If we call this a false start we have effectively made a new rule eliminating what is commonly referred to as “on 2.”  Football QBs have routinely “faked the snap count” for years by using the term hut-hut. Or some similar verbiage. So, all who advocate for a false start here, are you going to throw the flag for a double hug? Because the first Hut is obviously meant to do what this did.

No need for a "new rule". NFHS: 7-1-7 currently provides adequate explanation and guidance. NFHS: 7-1-8 (and 9) offers helpful clarification.  It is, however, within the SOLE judgment of the covering official to determine whether "A" has committed, "Any act", clearly intended to cause "B" to encroach.

Any time a game official chooses to exert "preventive officiating" to advise a player that some UNintentional behavior may be  misconstrued to suggest intent, to alert the player of accepting the consequence of unnecessary risk and eliminate potential misunderstanding is helpful and constructive, and may serve to eliminate future contentious situations.

[CalhounLJ]

YOU may have missed my point. Question - have you ever heard a QB give a "Hut" followed by a pause, then another "Hut"? In your opinion, what do you think the first "Hut" was designed to do? Make the defense encroach? If so, then that falls under the "any act designed to make the defense encroach. I for one have never flagged A for that, nor do I intend to. If we go there, then we must outlaw going up to the line on 4th and short and simulating a snap count with no intention of snapping the ball. Because that's clearly designed to cause B to encroach. So then, if that's the way we want to interpret this statement, I submit that whenever A comes to the line and does not snap the ball on the first "Hut," we flag them for false start.

[Brian26]

YOU may have missed my point. Question - have you ever heard a QB give a "Hut" followed by a pause, then another "Hut"? In your opinion, what do you think the first "Hut" was designed to do? Make the defense encroach? If so, then that falls under the "any act designed to make the defense encroach. I for one have never flagged A for that, nor do I intend to. If we go there, then we must outlaw going up to the line on 4th and short and simulating a snap count with no intention of snapping the ball. Because that's clearly designed to cause B to encroach. So then, if that's the way we want to interpret this statement, I submit that whenever A comes to the line and does not snap the ball on the first "Hut," we flag them for false start.

I agree, that's why you always hear defensive coaches yelling "watch the ball!" on short yardage situations. Everyone knows there is a good chance the QB is going to try and get the d to encroach. You see this at every level of play and don't recall ever seeing FS being called.

[dammitbobby]

YOU may have missed my point. Question - have you ever heard a QB give a "Hut" followed by a pause, then another "Hut"? In your opinion, what do you think the first "Hut" was designed to do? Make the defense encroach? If so, then that falls under the "any act designed to make the defense encroach. I for one have never flagged A for that, nor do I intend to. If we go there, then we must outlaw going up to the line on 4th and short and simulating a snap count with no intention of snapping the ball. Because that's clearly designed to cause B to encroach. So then, if that's the way we want to interpret this statement, I submit that whenever A comes to the line and does not snap the ball on the first "Hut," we flag them for false start.

So at what point would you flag a quarterback for false start, what would your criteria be?  From the video, I'd be inclined to throw a flag based solely on the hard head jerk. 

[CalhounLJ]

Well, for one thing, a head jerk is not necessarily simulating a snap. Neither is clapping your hands. If it's a lineman, I call simulating action at the snap either firing off, or either rocking back or beginning a step back in pass defense. If it's a back, I call a false start when he begins motion normally associated with movement at the beginning of a play. If he starts forward, or moves quickly to one side in a way that is not clearly motion. IMO, the QB is no different. If he's under center, simulating the snap would be quickly pulling away as if he has the ball. If he's in shotgun, it could be throwing his hands up as if expecting the snap.

[Derek Teigen]

This is a great topic and has made me really think what I would do if this situation presented itself in a game.  I need to know exactly how I would call this.  I was reading the rule book and a little further down from 7.1.7.B is 7.6. I read this  .....After a huddle or shift, all players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.

Has anyone every officiated a game where the 'clap' initiated the 'snap'?  If so it would be illegal according to Section 7, article 6 and penalized as an illegal shift if another player had been in motion.  What about a quarterback who is clapping rapidly in an effort to try and get the center to snap the ball and the ball is snapped during the clapping?  Again, this would be illegal and is penalized as an illegal shift if another player is in motion.

I think Calhoun's 'hut-hut' example is very pertinent to this because how can we ignore that 'act' and not the others?  The staggered cadence is clearly inteneded to draw the defense offsides.   I also agree with ReffJeff and Brian26 that the defensive lineman have no cause to be jumping offside due to any act by a player in A's backfield.