Author Topic: False start? (Read 37838 times)

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #25 on:** September 08, 2020, 01:24:06 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 08, 2020, 06:39:55 AM

If we call this a false start we have effectively made a new rule eliminating what is commonly referred to as “on 2.” Football QBs have routinely “faked the snap count” for years by using the term hut-hut. Or some similar verbiage. So, all who advocate for a false start here, are you going to throw the flag for a double hug? Because the first Hut is obviously meant to do what this did.

Football is a game of deception.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #26 on:** September 08, 2020, 01:36:17 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 08, 2020, 12:15:38 PM

IMO, the QB is no different. If he's under center, simulating the snap would be quickly pulling away as if he has the ball. If he's in shotgun, it could be throwing his hands up as if expecting the snap.

The current language of NFHS 7-1-7 seems perfectly clear, and applies to all "A" players, and is subject to the EXCLUSIVE judgment and interpretation of the covering game official, based on specifically what has been OBSERVED. "One size does not (and will likely NEVER) fit all" and trying to structure a written requirement to cover some infallible universal standard is not only unattainable, it is also UNNECESSARY, as the current verbiage, combined with the exclusivity, of the covering official's informed judgment, EFFECTIVELY deals with the subject.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #27 on:** September 08, 2020, 01:48:37 PM »

So, would you say that faking a snap count cadence to Attempt to cause B to encroach is a false start? Or no? Because it certainly fits the technical requirements of 7-1-7b

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #28 on:** September 08, 2020, 03:45:30 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 08, 2020, 01:48:37 PM

So, would you say that faking a snap count cadence to Attempt to cause B to encroach is a false start? Or no? Because it certainly fits the technical requirements of 7-1-7b

I have been sitting here wondering about rule 7-1-7.b and can understand why some officials would think this would be a false start. If we focus on the word 'ACT' we might be able to understand the inconsistencies of the application of this rule. When I think of the word act or action I am thinking there is movement of some kind. When you have the quarterback speaking or yelling is this really an 'action'? So the 'hut-hut' is not an action that would fall under rule 7-1-7.b but the exaggerated head bob or hand clap would be. what do you think Calhoun?

bama_stripes · « **Reply #29 on:** September 08, 2020, 03:54:12 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on September 08, 2020, 01:20:47 PM

Has anyone every officiated a game where the 'clap' initiated the 'snap'? If so it would be illegal according to Section 7, article 6 and penalized as an illegal shift if another player had been in motion. What about a quarterback who is clapping rapidly in an effort to try and get the center to snap the ball and the ball is snapped during the clapping? Again, this would be illegal and is penalized as an illegal shift if another player is in motion.

Derek: Do yourself a BIG favor — never EVER flag what you've just described.

HLinNC · « **Reply #30 on:** September 08, 2020, 03:59:25 PM »

Good Lord, hut-hut, hike-hike, go-go are not a false start. Quick body movements simulating the snap are. This isn't that freaking hard.

Derek, you're over-analyzing again.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #31 on:** September 08, 2020, 04:02:18 PM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on September 08, 2020, 03:54:12 PM

Derek: Do yourself a BIG favor — never EVER flag what you've just described.

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. I would have a deserved reputation and not a good one! But I will need to be decisive if this situation of the hand snap and encroachment ever comes up. My gut tells me its encroachment and the false start call would be very gutsy

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #32 on:** September 08, 2020, 04:04:16 PM »

Quote from: HLinNC on September 08, 2020, 03:59:25 PM

Good Lord, hut-hut, hike-hike, go-go are not a false start. Quick body movements simulating the snap are. This isn't that freaking hard.

Derek, you're over-analyzing again.

yeah but to Calhoun's point it is intended to draw the defense offsides......I was trying to reconcile why we don't call that yet the hand clap would be a false start....

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #33 on:** September 08, 2020, 04:56:58 PM »

My point was/is that the action by the QB in the video is nothing more, nothing less than a fake snap count, which hopefully none of us would call a false start.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #34 on:** September 08, 2020, 05:43:41 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 08, 2020, 01:48:37 PM

So, would you say that faking a snap count cadence to Attempt to cause B to encroach is a false start? Or no? Because it certainly fits the technical requirements of 7-1-7b

It very well "might", and just as likely, "might not" depending on what you ACTUALLY see, and whether YOU determine, it was, " an act clearly intended to cause B to encroach".

If you are determined to find "One size that fits all" this is the wrong place to look.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #35 on:** September 08, 2020, 05:56:40 PM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on September 08, 2020, 05:43:41 PM

It very well "might", and just as likely, "might not" depending on what you ACTUALLY see, and whether YOU determine, it was, " an act clearly intended to cause B to encroach".

If you are determined to find "One size that fits all" this is the wrong place to look.

If we have come to the point where we are flagging the offense because they are using a hard count to draw the defense offsides then my world is being rocked. I also think when this 'clap and snap' happens there should be a uniform response because otherwise one Friday night they will get flagged and the next they won't so that doesn't look good for any association in my opinion. But in my short time as an official I do not recall any quarterback using a clap snap but I will be on the lookout for it and try to figure out how my association wants us to address it.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #36 on:** September 08, 2020, 08:04:39 PM »

So I'm with Al and several other comments here. 1st time if no D gets drawn off, a stern talking to. After that a flag every time. This is no two count, this is a flat out false start with one simple clap with virtually no movement and a 2nd clap where he's in a sudden movement from the knees up including the head bob. He didn't do that on clap one so I see no alternative here. 1 warning, then flag. This is way beyond a typical hard count IMHO. If he wants to do a "2 count" he's got to do it without all of the movement.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #37 on:** September 08, 2020, 09:48:33 PM »

I wonder if the DL who encroached saw the movement you described. Looks tome like he had his head down looking at the ball. If that’s the case, what about the clap caused him to jump? The movement causing B to encroach argument would be more credible if an upright LB had been the one who encroached

HLinNC · « **Reply #38 on:** September 08, 2020, 11:21:03 PM »

Quote

I was trying to reconcile why we don't call that yet the hand clap would be a false start....
.

Because in this video clip, by this player, it is more than a hand clap.

BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #39 on:** September 09, 2020, 06:55:17 AM »

Great discussion! That play was actually the opening play from scrimmage. The link below is play #2, first & 5.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZcGdTcrnRMyPdSvY8

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #40 on:** September 09, 2020, 08:08:54 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 08, 2020, 09:48:33 PM

I wonder if the DL who encroached saw the movement you described. Looks tome like he had his head down looking at the ball. If that’s the case, what about the clap caused him to jump? The movement causing B to encroach argument would be more credible if an upright LB had been the one who encroached

If you're comfortable allowing a QB to decide where, and when, to set the line as to what activity (harsh count, feinting or abrupt movement, etc.) may, or may not, draw the defense into a violation, YOU can do that. Or, YOU can decide where, when and how such behavior creates an "unfair advantage" and STOP it. Either choice is EXCLUSIVELY yours to make (and live with).

Many experienced officials will provide some additional leeway, the first time they observe questionable behavior and (when their is NO VIOLATION caused by it) to advise the QB(the behavior was observed and it should not be repeated, which hopefully will avoid further attempts. If however, even that initial attempt draws the intended reaction, or ANY further similar efforts happen YOU (and ONLY You) can decide how to address each.

Consistency is an important factor, but the PRIMARY LEVEL OF CONSISTENCY relates to the game you are currently working, and be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD by those participants.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #41 on:** September 09, 2020, 02:37:46 PM »

Quote from: BetweenTheLines on September 09, 2020, 06:55:17 AM

Great discussion! That play was actually the opening play from scrimmage. The link below is play #2, first & 5.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZcGdTcrnRMyPdSvY8

This has been a great discussion! It's given me a lot to think about. I've noticed in college football, for example that they seem to ignore the machinations of the QB when he is clapping or moving his feet to ask for the snap, but the rule prohibiting the defense from trying to confuse the offense by calling signals is often enforced, but only when the offense jumps offside.

So the same with the rule 7.1.7.b it seems many officials would only penalize A if B jumped offsides and I don't understand that because it's a penalty regardless if B jumps offside or not. That goes back to the consistency of enforcing the rules and I think each association may address this differently but as long as we are all on the same page it will be a better experience week to week for the team(s) involved.

Ia-Ref · « **Reply #42 on:** September 09, 2020, 02:43:40 PM »

This just in from the (Iowa) State office:
PENALTY ENFORCEMENT- FAKE CLAP. (From a coach) On Friday night it was brought to me at half time that my QB was going to be called for a penalty for trying to draw the defense offsides because of his clap.
Here's what we do. We clap to initiate the center to snap the ball. In doing this, the defense can time up our count. We fake a clap by bringing the hands together but not making the clapping sound. It was verified on film that this is taking place. The officials came back from halftime letting me know that they were calling this a penalty in the future. I asked them what he was doing. They said that he was attempting to draw them offsides. I asked if there was a difference between going on two like other teams do and they said that by rule that could be a penalty as well.
Answer: A fake clap is no different than a QB saying - "Hut, (pause, pause) Hut, Hut - than the snap. If they draw the defense across on the fake clap it is a penalty for encroachment. Now if he bobs his head and is real aggressive regarding a potential snap, I believe the officials can look to see if a penalty can be assessed against the quarterback.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #43 on:** September 09, 2020, 03:04:39 PM »

it is true that with the clap snap team A effectively loses the advantage they have when running their offense with a count. That is why sometimes teams will fake a clap to try and keep team B off balance. I wonder why coaches use the clap snap in high school. IT's not that noisy that the team couldn't hear the count. I'm thinking they see this on Saturday's so it must be the thing to do.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #44 on:** September 09, 2020, 03:09:46 PM »

Quote from: Ia-Ref on September 09, 2020, 02:43:40 PM

This just in from the (Iowa) State office:
PENALTY ENFORCEMENT- FAKE CLAP. (From a coach) On Friday night it was brought to me at half time that my QB was going to be called for a penalty for trying to draw the defense offsides because of his clap.
Here's what we do. We clap to initiate the center to snap the ball. In doing this, the defense can time up our count. We fake a clap by bringing the hands together but not making the clapping sound. It was verified on film that this is taking place. The officials came back from halftime letting me know that they were calling this a penalty in the future. I asked them what he was doing. They said that he was attempting to draw them offsides. I asked if there was a difference between going on two like other teams do and they said that by rule that could be a penalty as well.
Answer: A fake clap is no different than a QB saying - "Hut, (pause, pause) Hut, Hut - than the snap. If they draw the defense across on the fake clap it is a penalty for encroachment. Now if he bobs his head and is real aggressive regarding a potential snap, I believe the officials can look to see if a penalty can be assessed against the quarterback.

This is exactly to Calhoun's point.

ElvisLives · « **Reply #45 on:** September 09, 2020, 03:53:34 PM »

For what it is worth, this ruling is in line with the official NCAA interpretation. A 'fake clap' by a player standing in position (no other body movement) is not to be considered a false start. However, a fake clap in concert with a head bob, chucking of the shoulders, thrusting of the hands forward, or any other quick, jerky movement (other than the fake clap) is a false start.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #46 on:** September 09, 2020, 06:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Ia-Ref on September 09, 2020, 02:43:40 PM

This just in from the (Iowa) State office:

Answer: A fake clap is no different than a QB saying - "Hut, (pause, pause) Hut, Hut - than the snap. If they draw the defense across on the fake clap it is a penalty for encroachment. Now if he bobs his head and is real aggressive regarding a potential snap, I believe the officials can look to see if a penalty can be assessed against the quarterback.

No matter how many ways to slice it, the answer's the same. If the QB tries something subtle, YOU perceive as "an attempt to draw B into a foul" (and B doesn't bite), 1st time, NO FLAG and I'd caution the QB I'll flag repeating efforts. If the 1st time does draw B into a foul, I'd flag "A" and issue the same caution.

Repeat efforts (I determine were attempts to draw B into a foul) Flag each time.

KDJBBBJ · « **Reply #47 on:** September 10, 2020, 01:21:40 PM »

I have enjoyed the disscussion on this and do agger that just the fake clap and no other movement is not a false start but just like going on two. the question i have and especially on the second clip is did everyone come to an absolute stop with no movement for at least one second?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #48 on:** September 10, 2020, 05:33:55 PM »

I really wasn’t paying attention so I went back and watched it again. I really didn’t see an issue. Of course, if you want to be technical, the QB may only have paused for ¾ of a second.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #49 on:** September 10, 2020, 06:12:54 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 10, 2020, 05:33:55 PM

I really wasn’t paying attention so I went back and watched it again. I really didn’t see an issue. Of course, if you want to be technical, the QB may only have paused for ¾ of a second.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The play you're viewing is long over, and long ago was called, one way or the other. Not even "All the King's horses and all the King's men" are going to change that, now. If you didn't see anything that YOU considered violates NFHS: 7-1-7, there was NO FOUL. However if the covering officials saw something that he considered an infraction, worthy of shutting down the play, he had every right to call it a violation.

There will NEVER be another play that is 100% exactly the same, or viewed and judged EXACTLY the same. Discussing the principles that factor into appropriate and correct judgments, are important and relevant to future considerations about similar plays, but the final judgments for each unique version of the 10s of thousands similar situations yet to occur should be based on specifically what the covering official actually observes & determines (for each play) and that official's understanding & comprehension of NFHS 7-1-7b. ("Any act that is clearly intended to cause B to encroach")