Author Topic: Numbering exception revisited...  (Read 270 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Numbering exception revisited...
« on: September 15, 2020, 06:27:23 PM »
I know this has been discussed ad nauseam, but several coaches in our area have suggested that if/when A lines up in a swinging gate using the numbering exception, and the snapper starts out on the end, they cannot run a play without a foul, even if they shift into a scrimmage kick formation with the snapper covered. I need help. I'll try to diagram what I'm talking about below:
                                            (s)
22 23 24 25 26  29                   27     
         28                                                                         30
                              31            QB

if you can't see, I'm trying to portray a shotgun formation on a try, with a swinging gate. My question is, since the snapper using the exception lined up on the end, can the formation be legal if they were to shift into a scrimmage kick formation and cover him up..

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 06:57:40 PM »
Something to consider: If they're not in a scrimmage kick formation before the shift, is anybody actually an exception?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 07:11:58 PM by Legacy Zebra »

Online HLinNC

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 07:03:15 PM »
In your diagram, 23,24,25,26, 29 are in under the exception as those are the K players that assumed an initial position between the ends.  Once they shift and cover #27, one of the ones who assumed the initial position of an interior lineman is now an end and thus K is now committing illegal numbering as well as that player is an ineligible receiver


« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 07:04:49 PM by HLinNC »

Offline bossman72

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 07:21:45 PM »
In your diagram, 23,24,25,26, 29 are in under the exception as those are the K players that assumed an initial position between the ends.  Once they shift and cover #27, one of the ones who assumed the initial position of an interior lineman is now an end and thus K is now committing illegal numbering as well as that player is an ineligible receiver




This is not true.  There is no foul, but they remain ineligible.  See case book 7.2.5E

Offline bossman72

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 07:23:26 PM »
I know this has been discussed ad nauseam, but several coaches in our area have suggested that if/when A lines up in a swinging gate using the numbering exception, and the snapper starts out on the end, they cannot run a play without a foul, even if they shift into a scrimmage kick formation with the snapper covered. I need help. I'll try to diagram what I'm talking about below:
                                            (s)
22 23 24 25 26  29                   27     
         28                                                                         30
                              31            QB

if you can't see, I'm trying to portray a shotgun formation on a try, with a swinging gate. My question is, since the snapper using the exception lined up on the end, can the formation be legal if they were to shift into a scrimmage kick formation and cover him up..

When they shift over, the play is legal, but #29 remains ineligible.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 08:03:47 PM »
Something to consider: If they're not in a scrimmage kick formation before the shift, is anybody actually an exception?

This is part of their argument and I agree with this. If A runs a play out of this formation we have a foul for illegal numbering because itís not a scrimmage kick formation. They also assert that because they lined up in a non scrimmage kick formation they canít run a play even though they shift into one. I disagree with that notion.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 08:06:19 PM »
So, if nobody is an exception prior to the shift, when does somebody become an exception?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 10:10:21 PM »
So, if nobody is an exception prior to the shift, when does somebody become an exception?

The exceptions come into play when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation. They can set into a non-scrimmage kick formation with no legal exceptions, then shift into a scrimmage kick formation and "activate" the exceptions after the shift. What the exceptions can be depends if it is 1st/2nd/3rd down (just the snapper) or 4th down/try (any interior lineman). They only need to be in a legal formation at the snap, so any pre snap shift shenanigans are irrelevant (barring illegal shifts).

In the original formation, unless the QB is 10 yards back (or #31 is acting as a holder 7 yards back?), there are no legal exceptions and you have illegal numbering. Once they shift into a kick formation (which doesn't require any of the linemen to move, by the way... just the kicker and/or holder), then you can have exceptions and a legal formation.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 05:57:01 AM »
 Thanks to all who contributed. Am I correct in saying that for the 1-3 down exception, the only player who can use the exception is the snapper, but on 4th or the try, the snapper doesnít have to be using the exception? In other words,he can snap from the end with a receiver number and be eligible.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 08:08:47 AM »
Thanks to all who contributed. Am I correct in saying that for the 1-3 down exception, the only player who can use the exception is the snapper, but on 4th or the try, the snapper doesnít have to be using the exception? In other words,he can snap from the end with a receiver number and be eligible.

Agree.  I would also agree with your last post that if they snap the ball as you have it drawn out in the OP, it's a foul for illegal numbering since they're not in scrimmage kick formation and have less than 5 50-79.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 09:57:54 AM »
Thanks to all who contributed. Am I correct in saying that for the 1-3 down exception, the only player who can use the exception is the snapper, but on 4th or the try, the snapper doesnít have to be using the exception? In other words,he can snap from the end with a receiver number and be eligible.

Yes, the only player that *can* use the expection on 1st-3rd down is the snapper. However, the snapper doesn't *have to* use the exception on 1-3rd down, as long as there are still 5 players on the line numbered between 50-79.

                                            (s)
                               22 63 64 27 65 66 69   
                           28                                 30

                                       31(h)
                                            1(k)

Assuming 31/1 (holder and kicker) are seven yards back, there are 5 correctly numbered linemen, so #27 is not utilizing the exception. They have one fewer eligible receiver in this formation since the end is wearing an ineligible number, but it is a legal formation.


Additionally, if they overload one side:

                                            (s)
                22 63 64 65 66 69 27   
                                                   28  30

                                       31(h)
                                            1(k)

Also legal and not utilizing the exception, regardless of down. In this formation, #27 is also an eligible receiver.

There is no requirement that a snapper in a scrimmage kick formation be (a) an interior lineman or (b) either numbered 50-79 or using the exception to replace a player numbered 50-79. They do have to be an interior lineman if they are using the numbering exception, but there is no requirement that they *must* use the exception.

Offline sir55

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 10:16:46 AM »
If the team is using the swinging gate and the numbering exception, if the center has his hands on the ball, can the entire line move from their position off to one side or the other. I know there are no restrictions on the ends and backs moving or shifting to new positions, but the lineman between the ends, once the center puts his hands on the ball, if they all shift, is that not a false start?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 10:46:36 AM »
If the team is using the swinging gate and the numbering exception, if the center has his hands on the ball, can the entire line move from their position off to one side or the other. I know there are no restrictions on the ends and backs moving or shifting to new positions, but the lineman between the ends, once the center puts his hands on the ball, if they all shift, is that not a false start?

Interior linemen in a three or four point stance cannot shift (well, they can't pick their hands up off the ground). There's no restriction if they are in a two point stance as long as the shift is not a sudden movement that may simulate the snap.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Numbering exception revisited...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 11:43:26 AM »
Yes, the only player that *can* use the expection on 1st-3rd down is the snapper. However, the snapper doesn't *have to* use the exception on 1-3rd down, as long as there are still 5 players on the line numbered between 50-79.

                                            (s)
                               22 63 64 27 65 66 69   
                           28                                 30

                                       31(h)
                                            1(k)

Assuming 31/1 (holder and kicker) are seven yards back, there are 5 correctly numbered linemen, so #27 is not utilizing the exception. They have one fewer eligible receiver in this formation since the end is wearing an ineligible number, but it is a legal formation.


Additionally, if they overload one side:

                                            (s)
                22 63 64 65 66 69 27   
                                                   28  30

                                       31(h)
                                            1(k)

Also legal and not utilizing the exception, regardless of down. In this formation, #27 is also an eligible receiver.

There is no requirement that a snapper in a scrimmage kick formation be (a) an interior lineman or (b) either numbered 50-79 or using the exception to replace a player numbered 50-79. They do have to be an interior lineman if they are using the numbering exception, but there is no requirement that they *must* use the exception.

This is clear and comprehensive. Thanks.