Handoff on a player who is on the same yard line with ball-carrier

[Farooq]

I have a judgement regarding one relatively new play. Some coaches now like to open rulebook, dig it and use opportunities to gain advantage for their teams.
They claim that if handoff occured on the same yard line to the hands of receiving player it is still backward. Parallel direction is backward.
There hadnt been a question for me before I encountered play Guard Around or Left Guard Special.
Play like this was called in my practice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3KrK6Bggp0 
A backward handoff occurs when the ball carrier releases the ball before it is beyond the yard line where the ball carrier is positioned. (2-13-1-d) Thats what NCAA rulebook tells about backward handoff. Release ball on the same yard line and its backward.
QB released ball on the yard line where the ball carrier (he) positioned (even slightly behind), NOT BEYOND = Handoff is still backward and legal on guard in this case. I cant disagree with a team which executed such play.

[bossman72]

To me, if it is not clearly backward, it's forward.  I would judge this play to be a forward handoff and illegal since the lineman did not do a full turn toward his own goal line before receiving a handoff.  When you do a trick play, you have to be 100% legal to the letter of the law and I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt here.  "My judgment" the handoff was forward, although technically by rule it MAY have been parallel.

[Farooq]

100% I will judge the same execution as legal next time because 2-13-1-d very clearly differentiates backward and forward. If hand released ball not beyond position of ball carrier then its backward. No other option. Guard and QB turned to each other and hand which released ball was clearly not beyond position of ball-carrier. I cant flag it even if I want because rule says release must be not beyond position of ball carrier, which was a case there.
Trick play or simple play doesnt matter. We must consider all episodes strictly according to the letter of the rulebook
On the other hand guard can align closer to the football. In that case when he turns on QB he is clearly in advance. Hand of QB will release ball beyond (in front) of his position. That will be illegal. And I can see it very clearly.

As long as Guard is allowed to line up deeper (helmet breaks center's belt or weist level) and QB sets tightly under center this play can be executed legally, because yep 1) both players are on the same yard line 2) hand releases ball not beyond of ball-carrier position during simultaneous turn.
I like this play frankly. Its smart if executed correctly. Thats what makes my job fun and exciting.
I always watch on linemen alignment and flag offense for illegal formation if someone sets too deep, technically in backfield. Its my favourite part in officiating. And this play heavily depends on alignment.

[Farooq]

And that is clearly illegal execution. Easy to define. Guard aligned helmet to helmet with center on LOS before snap. He turned to QB who handed the ball forward.

[Farooq]

legality of this play is of course depends on
a) Deep and legal alignment of guard on LOS. If his helmet breaks center's belt level the play may be legal
b) position of QB's hand. Where actually it releases the ball. If it releases not beyond of QB. Ok. Handoff is backward. Play is legal
Thats fair. Execute it correctly just like on 1st example and there shouldnt be flag thrown.

[dammitbobby]

I'm not an U or R, but wouldn't the wings be in the best position to judge where the QB's hands are, and the legality of the exchange? 

Problem is, the wings aren't watching the QB or the guard (or shouldn't be).

Unless I'm missing something?

[Farooq]

Nice view from backfield (1st example). Qb clearly made backward movement of the hands during his turning and ball left his hand(s) behind his position, at least obviously not beyond. What really matters according 2-13-1-d is where ball leaves hand and not actual position of player who receives a handoff

[dammitbobby]

I'm with Bossman on this one. If it's close, it's forward.

[Kalle]

If you want a definite ruling on this you are best sending the play to the IFAF rules committee (you should be able to get the address from your national assignor), but I'm willing to bet that even in your latest diagram the play would be ruled illegal on the spirit of the rule.

[Farooq]

Need technical interpretation of such type of handoff. Backward or forward?


Case occured year ago. QB reached back and handed ball on A62 moving towards LOS on dive. Ball left hands of QB during forward motion of A62 probably on the same yard-line with QB. Offense put one extra-lineman A62 in backfield as back.

[Legacy Zebra]

Numbering is irrelevant on a handoff. Any back can take any handoff behind the line of scrimmage.  Whether he’s wearing an eligible number or not and whether it’s forward or backward are both irrelevant if the player taking the handoff is a back.

More to the actual point of your question, this is a backward handoff by definition since you said it was at the same yard line as the ball carrier. A backward handoff is when the ball is released before it is beyond the yard line where the ball carrier is located. Philosophically, a forward handoff should be obviously forward. If there’s any doubt, rule it backwards.

[Farooq]

A backward handoff is when the ball is released before it is beyond the yard line where the ball carrier is located. Philosophically, a forward handoff should be obviously forward. If there’s any doubt, rule it backwards.

I was proven otherwise in this thread. If its close its always forward even if technically its on the same yard-line.

[Kalle]

I was proven otherwise in this thread. If its close its always forward even if technically its on the same yard-line.

We were talking about trick-type plays then. This play is just a simple handoff to a back, so EZ gave you the correct answer (as is usual with him).

[Rob S]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is the original lineman must be at least two yards behind the line when he receives the ball per 7-1-6b. In the video posted, the guard turns around nearly in place and receives the ball one yard behind the line.

Additionally, I personally don't think he was "facing his own endline" before the handoff, he was still more or less facing the sideline (admittedly this is close and depends when you say he "receives" it). But that doesn't really matter when he's not 2 yards back.

[Farooq]

I dont understand difference because there are no special exclusion for any kind of plays in rulebook. There are no words that we must officiate "gadget  (unusual) plays" in different way than we officiate ordinary plays. Same yard handing must be officiated the same everywhere. "If its close then its forward". 62 is ineligible by number. Thus its foul.

[Legacy Zebra]

The trick play philosophy is just that: a philosophy. It’s not a rule. If your supervisor doesn’t want you to officiate them differently in your country, that’s y’all’s prerogative.

62 is ineligible by number to touch a forward pass. Eligibility has nothing to do with handing the ball. Handing and passing have two different sets of rules and have nothing to do with each other.

[JasonTX]

I dont understand difference because there are no special exclusion for any kind of plays in rulebook. There are no words that we must officiate "gadget  (unusual) plays" in different way than we officiate ordinary plays. Same yard handing must be officiated the same everywhere. "If its close then its forward". 62 is ineligible by number. Thus its foul.

The rule book doesn't list philosophies so you won't find it there.  If a team uses a "gadget" play that is toeing the line between legal and illegal, we will officiate it with a higher level of scrutiny.   

[Farooq]

Eligibility has nothing to do with handing the ball. Handing and passing have two different sets of rules and have nothing to do with each other.

He still needs to turn 180 degrees to receive forward handoff.
 Or what about this situation then? 62 is originally on LOS but he folds deep in backfield and then receives the same type of handoff diving in LOS. Backward or Forward?

[ElvisLives]

Or what about this situation then? 62 is originally on LOS but he folds deep in backfield and then receives the same type of handoff diving in LOS. Backward or Forward?

Farooq,
I don't mean to be patronizing, but you will learn better if you do a little research, yourself. Check out 7-1-6-b. Read it carefully, and then apply it to the action you describe. Did the lineman make a movement with both feet that faced him toward his own end line? And, was he at least 2 yards behind his LOS when he received the ball?

Check the rule language carefully, then report back with what you believe is the correct answer.

[Farooq]

Farooq,
I don't mean to be patronizing, but you will learn better if you do a little research, yourself. Check out 7-1-6-b. Read it carefully, and then apply it to the action you describe. Did the lineman make a movement with both feet that faced him toward his own end line? And, was he at least 2 yards behind his LOS when he received the ball?

Check the rule language carefully, then report back with what you believe is the correct answer.

Sir, with all due respect I completely understand this rule. My question was about technical aspect only. I wanted to understand when we should consider this as forward handoff and when as backward.
As far as I understood. If this handoff on back 50-79 we must consider it as backward handoff.
If this handoff on 50-79 player who was originally from LOS we must consider it as forward handing guided by "philosophy": trick plays must be 100 % legal, not in vague zone between legal and illegal

Thus, only if handoff on lineman 50-79 is clearly backward we dont apply restrictions for forward handoff from 7-1-6-b

[JasonTX]

Sir, with all due respect I completely understand this rule. My question was about technical aspect only. I wanted to understand when we should consider this as forward handoff and when as backward.
As far as I understood. If this handoff on back 50-79 we must consider it as backward handoff.
If this handoff on 50-79 player who was originally from LOS we must consider it as forward handing guided by "philosophy": trick plays must be 100 % legal, not in vague zone between legal and illegal

Thus, only if handoff on lineman 50-79 is clearly backward we dont apply restrictions for forward handoff from 7-1-6-b

If that 50-79 player is a back then it doesn't matter if you judge it to be forward or backwards since he can receive either one.

[ElvisLives]

Well, this is as simple as anyone can make it.
Forward handing is when the point of release of the ball is beyond the yard line on which the player handing the ball is positioned at the time of handing. Any other handing is backward handing, just like any passing of the ball that isn't forward is backward (even if parallel to the yard lines).

Backward handing of the ball may be performed by any two players, any time, anywhere.

To legally perform forward handing, the handing may only be by Team A behind the NZ, and must be by a back to another back, or by a back to a lineman (regardless of the lineman's jersey number) ONLY if the lineman has left his position on the line (after the snap) and made a motion with both feet that faces him toward his own end line, and he is then at least 2 yards behind the NZ when the ball is handed forward to him.

The number worn by either the hander or the receiver is irrelevant to handing of the ball.

[Farooq]

Well, this is as simple as anyone can make it.
Forward handing is when the point of release of the ball is beyond the yard line on which the player handing the ball is positioned at the time of handing. Any other handing is backward handing, just like any passing of the ball that isn't forward is backward (even if parallel to the yard lines).

Backward handing of the ball may be performed by any two players, any time, anywhere.

That was I claimed in the beginning of this theme. Point of release matters. If its not beyond of a ball-carrier then handing is backward (free anytime, anywhere on any player). But I was corrected furhter in discussion this is not a case if a play is "trick". What is trick is also vague. Some teams in Eastern Europe intentionally pull one 50-79 lineman deeper backfield not for block, but for backward passes or handoffs like that to have advantage unexpected for opponent in particular run plays. They receive handoffs on the same yard line after misdirections and fakes, then run zones like backs.

[Kalle]

Please see the IFAF Manual of Football Officiating regarding the philosophy on trick plays. This is at http://www.myiafoa.org/mechanics/mofo18/interp.htm 3.8.8. If you think it doesn't apply to the original play, then you officiate it accordingly. If you need a confirmation, please talk to your country officiating supervisor or the IFAF rules editor, who is usually easily reachable via the IAFOA forum (link in the myiafoa.org page). If you come to Finland, be prepared to officiate the original play as a trick play and the latest play as a normal handoff to a back.

[Farooq]

Please see the IFAF Manual of Football Officiating regarding the philosophy on trick plays. This is at http://www.myiafoa.org/mechanics/mofo18/interp.htm 3.8.8. If you think it doesn't apply to the original play, then you officiate it accordingly. If you need a confirmation, please talk to your country officiating supervisor or the IFAF rules editor, who is usually easily reachable via the IAFOA forum (link in the myiafoa.org page). If you come to Finland, be prepared to officiate the original play as a trick play and the latest play as a normal handoff to a back.

Dont have problem with it at all. I recognize that both original play in this theme and play on second picture (same-side handoff of pulled deep Center) are trick plays. As a referee I must consider such plays with high rate of scrutiny and make sure that handoff was
a) either clearly backward (point of release was behind Ball-carrier)
b) or if not then legal forward where I apply restrictions with strict 180-degree turn after snap and at least 2 yards behind LOS
If I wasnt notified in advance and thus hadnt opportunity to see a moment or if trick action was on the border between legal and illegal I must officiate play as illegal and penalize team