Clarification please

[juxone]

If either A or B enters the field of play but, STOPS short of the numbers and remains between the sideline and the numbers, until after the snap, is this an illegal substition?

[HLinNC]

Yes unless he participates.  But the numbers have nothing to do with it.  See 3-7-6.

[js in sc]

Also appropriate to this scenario is 7-2-1, "after the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A... and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily between the 9-yards marks (Numbers in some cases) before the snap. Illegal formation, 5 yards.  I know of no such restrictions for B.
3-7-6 refers to entering during the down, not prior to the snap as in this case.

[bossman72]

Also appropriate to this scenario is 7-2-1, "after the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A... and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily between the 9-yards marks (Numbers in some cases) before the snap. Illegal formation, 5 yards.  I know of no such restrictions for B.
3-7-6 refers to entering during the down, not prior to the snap as in this case.

+1

[BetweenTheLines]

For test purposes this is an illegal formation, but in reality if the defense sees the player and has coverage you have nothing.

[HLinNC]

For test purposes this is an illegal formation, but in reality if the defense sees the player and has coverage you have nothing.

I get the Ill. Formation aspect, i.e. A player not/coming inside the 9's/#'s.  I read the OP more as a sub enters the field and he is more than player 11 although now that I think about it, under 9-6-4 it is going to be IP anyway because as I re-read the post, he states "remains.....until after the snap".

So if the entering sub is an A player, 11th or less, it is Ill. Formation.  12+, Illegal Participation.  If he is a B player, 11th or less, nothing.  12+= Ill. Participation

[NVFOA_Ump]

We've always been instructed that if A (or B) has a 12th player on the field and no "replaced player" is exiting as the snap is eminent to blow and throw for a substitution infraction and do not let it get to an Illegal Participation foul.  That includes shutting the play down if the snap is going off as we realize that there's 12 on the field.

[HLinNC]

We've always been instructed that if A (or B) has a 12th player on the field and no "replaced player" is exiting as the snap is eminent to blow and throw for a substitution infraction and do not let it get to an Illegal Participation foul.  That includes shutting the play down if the snap is going off as we realize that there's 12 on the field.

Got that but we're talking rules, not philosophy.

[KWH]

We've always been instructed that if A (or B) has a 12th player on the field and no "replaced player" is exiting as the snap is eminent to blow and throw for a substitution infraction and do not let it get to an Illegal Participation foul.  That includes shutting the play down if the snap is going off as we realize that there's 12 on the field.

In Practice, that is how the rule is to be implemented.

[bossman72]

We've always been instructed that if A (or B) has a 12th player on the field and no "replaced player" is exiting as the snap is eminent to blow and throw for a substitution infraction and do not let it get to an Illegal Participation foul.  That includes shutting the play down if the snap is going off as we realize that there's 12 on the field.

This is why the rule needs to be changed to 5 yard Illegal Substitution if you participate (start the down) with 12.  Still shut it down before hand, but if you don't catch it until after the snap, it's still only 5 yards.  The only difference between 5 and 15 is how fast the officials get their count, so we should not be the difference in the penalty.

[HLinNC]

This is why the rule needs to be changed to 5 yard Illegal Substitution if you participate (start the down) with 12.  Still shut it down before hand, but if you don't catch it until after the snap, it's still only 5 yards.  The only difference between 5 and 15 is how fast the officials get their count, so we should not be the difference in the penalty.

So you would have IP be just for entering after the snap?  I can live with that.

[AlUpstateNY]

So you would have IP be just for entering after the snap?  I can live with that.

The covering official's judgment decides whether the player "participates", or not, so it's really a matter of what he observes, his understanding of the applicable rule(s) and his common sense applied to THAT (unique) specific incident.

[HLinNC]

Gee, thanks Al.  I'll try really hard to remember that.

[KWH]

Gee, thanks Al.  I'll try really hard to remember that.

+1