Author Topic: USC  (Read 369 times)

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Offline mhenders

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USC
« on: October 09, 2020, 12:17:22 PM »
Dead ball unsportsmanlike on both teams. Are the penalties marked off or do they offset?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: USC
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 12:25:26 PM »
NFHS see 10-2-b

If they occur prior to enforcement administration, equal numbers offset.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: USC
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 01:59:56 PM »
Speaking for NCAA only. Just being accurate here. They don't "offset," but the penalties "cancel." A fine distinction, I will grant you. But a distinction by rule (10-1-5 Exception). If I am making the announcement, I say, "After the down, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, number 55 defense; Unsportsmanlike Conduct, number 78, offense. Those penalties cancel. Third down." Note that I didn't say, "Those fouls cancel." Fouls offset. Penalties cancel.
Also note that the down number is not affected by the cancelation of the penalties. When the ball became dead with no live-ball fouls, if it would next be third down, then, after the cancelation of the dead-ball foul penalties, the down will still be third down. (No automatic first down for Team B fouls when the penalties cancel.) Of course, any disqualification or ejection will still be valid and honored. Send him/them off to the sidelines (DQ), or to the dressing room (ejection).

This could apply to pre-snap fouls, too. For example, after the ball is RFP on third down, with the clock running at 6:00 (3), defensive lineman B77 beats the snap and forcibly charges into offensive guard A66 with the crown of his helmet, and then A88 grabs B77 and slams B77 to the ground in retaliation. TGT, B77, with UNR (flagrant), A88. The PENALTIES cancel, and it will still be third down. B77 is disqualified. A88 is ejected. The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and both the play clock and the game clock will start on the referee's signal.

Offline bossman72

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Re: USC
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2020, 10:51:35 AM »
Speaking for NCAA only. Just being accurate here. They don't "offset," but the penalties "cancel." A fine distinction, I will grant you. But a distinction by rule (10-1-5 Exception). If I am making the announcement, I say, "After the down, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, number 55 defense; Unsportsmanlike Conduct, number 78, offense. Those penalties cancel. Third down." Note that I didn't say, "Those fouls cancel." Fouls offset. Penalties cancel.
Also note that the down number is not affected by the cancelation of the penalties. When the ball became dead with no live-ball fouls, if it would next be third down, then, after the cancelation of the dead-ball foul penalties, the down will still be third down. (No automatic first down for Team B fouls when the penalties cancel.) Of course, any disqualification or ejection will still be valid and honored. Send him/them off to the sidelines (DQ), or to the dressing room (ejection).

This could apply to pre-snap fouls, too. For example, after the ball is RFP on third down, with the clock running at 6:00 (3), defensive lineman B77 beats the snap and forcibly charges into offensive guard A66 with the crown of his helmet, and then A88 grabs B77 and slams B77 to the ground in retaliation. TGT, B77, with UNR (flagrant), A88. The PENALTIES cancel, and it will still be third down. B77 is disqualified. A88 is ejected. The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and both the play clock and the game clock will start on the referee's signal.

Important distinction between NFHS and NCAA.  Say there were 2 UNRs on Team A and 1 on Team B.  NCAA they all cancel.  NFHS you do subtraction and enforce 1 UNR penalty on Team A.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: USC
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 09:12:49 AM »
Important distinction between NFHS and NCAA.  Say there were 2 UNRs on Team A and 1 on Team B.  NCAA they all cancel.  NFHS you do subtraction and enforce 1 UNR penalty on Team A.
Welcome, mehenders, to our forum. May you find it both enjoyable and informative. As bossman stated, unlike NCAA multiple USCs would only cancel on a pro-rata basis. Dead ball fouls prior to the snap would only cancel if the same yardage was involved....A1 false starts and big ole' Bubba  B2 sees his chance to level an A. Net 10 yards against B and Bubba sent a' packing. Hope this helps.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: USC
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 11:18:32 AM »
And let me clarify for NCAA. Mhenders was referencing UNS fouls, and I was only addressing that scenario. Penalties for dead-ball UNS and UNR fouls that are 'reported' to the R before any of them are 'completed,' cancel, and the down number is unaffected.
However, when other types of fouls are involved during a dead-ball period (i.e., pre-snap), the fouls are enforced separately, and in the order of occurrence.
Example 1: False start by A66, followed by UNS by B99. Those are both enforced, and the yardage will 'net' Team A 10 yards, with a first down.

Example 2: False start by A66, followed by UNS/UNR by B99 and an immediate UNS/UNR by A77. The false start is penalized, but the penalties for the UNS/UNR fouls cancel. The down number is unaffected.

Example 3: False start by A66, followed by UNS/UNR by B99 and an immediate UNS/UNR by A77. As the Referee is confirming the penalty enforcement with the U (penalties have been completed), B99 flips off the opponent's bench. The false start is penalized, the penalties for the first UNS/UNR by B99 and the UNS/UNR by A77 have already been canceled. Then the penalty for the second UNS by B99 is enforced from the spot where the FST penalty left the ball, 15 yards, 'netting' Team A 10 yards, plus a first down. Oh, yeah. B99 is ejected.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 02:26:38 PM by ElvisLives »