Author Topic: Pooch Kick caught in air by K  (Read 569 times)

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Offline animalspooker

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Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« on: October 13, 2020, 12:17:03 PM »
Had this last Friday.  Pooch kick down to the 40.  K player caught it on one-hop and took off.  We blew it dead.  Spotted ball where recovered.

But what if he'd caught it in the air with no R players within 15 yards or making attempt to catch/recover?  What is the ruling here and penalty enforcement?  R's ball 'going in' on the 45 due to KCI?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2020, 12:41:32 PM »
If K had caught it in the air you would have KCI. R can take an awarded fair where K caught it, or they can take it there and add a 15yd penalty, they can take the penalty at the previous spot with a rekick or they can decline the penalty.

I hope you gave the ball to K on the one hop recovery.


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Offline animalspooker

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2020, 12:45:20 PM »
Oh yes, we gave it to K at the spot of secured possession.

Online GA Umpire

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 02:48:50 PM »
If K had caught it in the air you would have KCI. R can take an awarded fair where K caught it, or they can take it there and add a 15yd penalty, they can take the penalty at the previous spot with a rekick or they can decline the penalty.

I hope you gave the ball to K on the one hop recovery.


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Calhoun:
If "K" caught the kick  with no "R" players around, as in the OP, wouldn't the ball be dead at the spot and awarded to "R" as it is when caught on the bounce?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 02:51:01 PM »
Not on a free kick.   

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 02:53:55 PM »
Not on a free kick.
Sorry.
The OP did not mention if it was a free kick or a scrimmage kick.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2020, 08:17:25 PM »
I took pooch kick to mean free kick

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2020, 10:23:34 AM »
Does anybody know what the philosophy is behind the rule that K cannot advance a free kick ball that they have recovered (ball has gone 10 yards and has bounced at least once)??

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2020, 05:21:50 PM »
K can not advance a free or scrimmage kick beyond LOS, they can recover a free kick after it had grounded and gone 10 yards, in either order and keep possession.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2020, 07:52:02 PM »
yes... I understand but 'why?' cannot they not advance.  I just find it interesting that R can advance any kick but if K recovers a free kick or a muffed scrimmage kick they cannot advance.  I wonder how it was that this became a rule.  A safety issue?? but its no different than an ordinary non kicking play.  Advantage/disadvantage?   Maybe the rules makers felt it was penalty enough that R lost possession of the ball in the first place?  Just some random thoughts on this is all.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:00:55 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2020, 10:28:32 AM »
yes... I understand but 'why?' cannot they not advance.  I just find it interesting that R can advance any kick but if K recovers a free kick or a muffed scrimmage kick they cannot advance.  I wonder how it was that this became a rule.  A safety issue?? but its no different than an ordinary non kicking play.  Advantage/disadvantage?   Maybe the rules makers felt it was penalty enough that R lost possession of the ball in the first place?  Just some random thoughts on this is all.

A "Free Kick" (NFHS: 4-1) is designed to specifically, "start each half to resume play after a Field Goal, or after a try, the ball will be put in play by a "kickoff".  (NFHS:3-2-1) "Each half of the game shall be started by a "kickoff". (NFHS: 2-24-5) defines a kickoff.

NFHS: 6-1-6&7 discuss K's allowable opportunities during a free kick. 

There is NO LEGAL/OFFICIAL DEFINITION of a "pooch-kick", A "pop-up" kick is defined in 2-24-10 (and is Illegal).

Essentially, a kickoff (free-kick) is the established means of designating possession of the ball, following which, allows "Play" to begin, as determined by established rules, which included limited exceptions whereby possession can be obtained by "K".  Those exceptions, by design, are limited, ostensibly to direct the intended possession to "R" to begin Play (as determined appropriate by a variety of other circumstances and rules).

A better understanding of the rational used to create rules can be a significant asset in correctly enforcing them, however agreement  with the intended direction of each rule is outside and beyond the necessity of our role in appropriate enforcement.  It is also helpful to be aware of both significant and subtle differences between the major American Football Rule Codes (NFHS, NCAA, NFL) to assist in applying (or explaining when necessary) the proper adjudications of the Code governing the game being played.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2020, 10:46:56 AM »
So, long story short, you donít know either.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2020, 11:59:08 AM »
Derek, go track down Anatomy of a Game by David M. Nelson.  My local library has a copy.  It can be hefty reading but follows the rule changes back to the game's inception.  You might find your answer there.

I imagine it has something to do with differentiating the game from rugby.

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Anatomy_of_a_Game.html?id=OmwfnipKuogC
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 12:03:08 PM by HLinNC »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2020, 11:59:45 AM »
So, long story short, you donít  you don't know either.

I may not "know", but I think I have a reasonably good idea.  A Kickoff seems DESIGNED & INTENDED to give the ball to "R" so as to start, or continue Play after a score. Over time, Rule makers have developed a limited number of "exceptions" that would allow "K" to be awarded possession. 

As I understand the meaning of "pooch kick", it's a lofted kick over "Rs" restraining line, designed to land behind that line, but before any of the deeper receivers, but close enough that "K" could reach the landing area before any "R" players.  One problem is it only satisfies half of the restrictions for K recovering and keeping possession (it goes 10 yds, but doesn't touch the ground).

The recent "Pop-Up" kick eliminated that deficiency, but after extensive discussion and review, was declared illegal.

A really basic principal of (a) how to start a game, or (b) restart it after someone scores is choosing which team starts with possession for (a) by a coin flip, or (b) by a "free-kick", BY the scoring team, TO the scored upon team, with LIMITED exception opportunity for  "K" to capture possession.

It's really nice, and helpful, that we, as field officials, understand the logic behind our rules, but NOT REQUIRED that we agree with every decision and detail included by those responsible for designing each rule (including that which might differ from other codes). We are expected to KNOW, specifically, what each rule REQUIRES.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2020, 01:03:58 PM »
Derek, go track down Anatomy of a Game by David M. Nelson.  My local library has a copy.  It can be hefty reading but follows the rule changes back to the game's inception.  You might find your answer there.

I imagine it has something to do with differentiating the game from rugby.

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Anatomy_of_a_Game.html?id=OmwfnipKuogC

Thanks!  it's on my Christmas List!!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2020, 01:46:40 PM »
I may not "know", but I think I have a reasonably good idea.  A Kickoff seems DESIGNED & INTENDED to give the ball to "R" so as to start, or continue Play after a score. Over time, Rule makers have developed a limited number of "exceptions" that would allow "K" to be awarded possession. 

As I understand the meaning of "pooch kick", it's a lofted kick over "Rs" restraining line, designed to land behind that line, but before any of the deeper receivers, but close enough that "K" could reach the landing area before any "R" players.  One problem is it only satisfies half of the restrictions for K recovering and keeping possession (it goes 10 yds, but doesn't touch the ground).

The recent "Pop-Up" kick eliminated that deficiency, but after extensive discussion and review, was declared illegal.

A really basic principal of (a) how to start a game, or (b) restart it after someone scores is choosing which team starts with possession for (a) by a coin flip, or (b) by a "free-kick", BY the scoring team, TO the scored upon team, with LIMITED exception opportunity for  "K" to capture possession.

It's really nice, and helpful, that we, as field officials, understand the logic behind our rules, but NOT REQUIRED that we agree with every decision and detail included by those responsible for designing each rule (including that which might differ from other codes). We are expected to KNOW, specifically, what each rule REQUIRES.

With all due respect Al, none of this rambling has anything to do with explaining why K cannot advance a grounded free kick, which is the question.  Do you know why that rule was created?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2020, 04:01:38 PM »
With all due respect Al, none of this rambling has anything to do with explaining why K cannot advance a grounded free kick, which is the question.  Do you know why that rule was created?

Didn't mean to "ramble", but it's such a purely speculative question, I was just trying to suggest why I thought the Rule makers decided NOT to extend that potential (K having the right to advance a recovered free-kick), beyond the long standing current limits under which K is allowed to retain possession of a free-kick.  An exception that applies (limits) to both free and scrimmage kicks.

Apparently Rule makers have yet to be convinced expanding current limitations would benefit, or improve, the game.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2020, 04:47:46 PM »
This makes sense to me:

Because the return team is in a highly disadvantageous position in the case of a muffed punt. There is normally only one guy back there, and 2-4 players from the other team coming at him with momentum. It could lead to very easy points. They donít want the to give the kicking team the ability to score points on punts.

As for the onside kick, this eliminates the ability for the kicking team to obtain points or advance the ball because there is so much open space on an onside kick.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2020, 07:10:08 PM »
There are plenty of rules that I cannot quote verbatim, but I understand the "why" to them and therefore know what is legal and not.

I am glad that I do not know college or NFL rules well.  Plenty of other officials get confused though.  Many conversation have ended with "Coach, that is not the high school rule.  It might be in college or NFL."  In fact I used that line last night with a coach who went ballistic because "They broke the huddle with twelve!"    He claimed his team has been penalized 2-3 times this season for that.  That's entirely possible.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Pooch Kick caught in air by K
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2020, 07:14:12 PM »
This makes sense to me:

Because the return team is in a highly disadvantageous position in the case of a muffed punt. There is normally only one guy back there, and 2-4 players from the other team coming at him with momentum. It could lead to very easy points. They donít want the to give the kicking team the ability to score points on punts.

As for the onside kick, this eliminates the ability for the kicking team to obtain points or advance the ball because there is so much open space on an onside kick.

I think you're basically right.  When you kick the ball, you're basically giving it up to the other team.  "We don't want possession anymore."  So, you can't use it for offense, basically.  That's my non-educated guess.