A question from Pre-Game

[HLinNC]

I'm not NHFS (and I know this is the NHFS board), but is this rule the same as NCAA?  Before I go through it and try to understand and learn from it, want to make sure it's the right rulebook for me.  I don't know if the NCAA rulebook is the same or not on this topic.

If you don't, we don't.

 

[CalhounLJ]

I agree this is not a dire situation. 99.99% of the time, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation on 4th down, we then have a scrimmage kick and all of this is functionally moot. Of the remaining 0.01%, an even smaller fraction of the remaining plays involves the necessary shift followed by a forward pass. I'd put the likelyhood of this being an issue only slightly above the odds of "Defense electing to kickoff after a score".

This is where I disagree about the lack of a problem. If they both shift to eligible positions, one of them is still ineligible because of the numbering exception -- but you can't look at the presnap formation and tell me which one.

I agree this is a problem. But it’s more of a problem for the officials than the teams/coaches. If the defense is committed to covering eligibles by position and number at the snap, they should be able to handle this. It’s not like A gained an advantage. In reality, he created a disadvantage because now there is one less eligible pass receiver.

[dammitbobby]

If you don't, we don't.

 

challenge accepted.  I'll track down the relevant rule(s) and report back.

[SCHSref]

I hope this helps to clear the water a little...but I'm not as experienced as you other guys.

My state's mechanics manual states that the BJ and LJ are under the posts for a FG/Kick Try. We count R and then call out the 2 numbers on the end. Obviously, we are looking for ineligibles in the event of a fake kick to a passing play. Those two on the ends are eligible by position, but only by number if they have an eligible number. I hope this helps and I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or knowledge of the rules or game, just throwing out a scenario.

[AlUpstateNY]

My state's mechanics manual states that the BJ and LJ are under the posts for a FG/Kick Try. We count R and then call out the 2 numbers on the end. Obviously, we are looking for ineligibles in the event of a fake kick to a passing play. Those two on the ends are eligible by position, but only by number if they have an eligible number. I hope this helps and I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or knowledge of the rules or game, just throwing out a scenario.

Sounds like a practically, preventive idea.  "An ounce of preventions is usually worth a pound of cure"

[dammitbobby]

challenge accepted.  I'll track down the relevant rule(s) and report back.

SO here's what I see, from an NCAA perspective (on the original scenario)

Original scenario:
4th and 5 on the B-30. A comes to the line and assumes an initial set in scrimmage kick (FG) formation. When the snapper touches the ball, Team A has 5 players numbered 50-79. A82 lined up as the right tackle. Team A then shifts, uncovering 82 and leaving him on the end of the line. Ball is snapped to A7 who is standing on the B-40. At the snap, A82 runs a route to the B25 and A7 fakes the punt and throws a pass A82 at the B25.

***
Rule 7-1-4 2 and 3: 
2.  All players must be either linemen or backs (Rule 2-27-4, A.R. 7-1-4-VIII).
3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation, par. 5 below.) (Exception does not apply here, as it deals with less than 5 linemen numbered 50-79).

So when the snapper touches the ball, it is a legal formation. 

When the shift occurs, uncovering 82, thus leaving him on the end of the line, 82 becomes an numbering exception, by 7-1-a: 

7-1-5-a Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established.

However.

7-1-5 b and c:
(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a foul for an illegal formation.
(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless they become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched by an official or a Team B player).

Hopefully I got it right.

[Kalle]

When the shift occurs, uncovering 82, thus leaving him on the end of the line, 82 becomes an numbering exception, by 7-1-a: 

Actually, as team A has five linemen numbered 50-79 (assuming that this is true even after the shift), there are no numbering exceptions to consider. So 82 is eligible as he is on the end of the line.

If team A starts with five linemen and shifts one of the into the backfield after the snapper has been established, the result will be an illegal formation even if they have seven players on the line, as again there are no numbering exceptions as all of these got resolved before the shift.

In NCAA the numbering exception rule is pretty tight so it is difficult to use it to fool the defense into not covering an eligible player, as the intent of the exception is to allow fast players to cover punts, not to fool defense.