loose ball that never touches the ground

[Farooq]

I encountered this situation. QB (A10) put the ball on the back of lying on the ground neighbor player A30 during sneak. Ball was then covered by his teammate A45 who bended over lying player. When pile of defensive and offensive players was established A45 grabbed the ball from the back of A30 and advanced it to end-zone.
How to officiate this? Formally ball was in flight because it didnt hit the ground. Delayed backward pass?

[Kalle]

I think this is actually a delayed handoff, as it does not qualify as a pass (it is not thrown). So if A45 was a back at the snap this is legal even if it is forward.

[ElvisLives]

Sounds suspiciously like a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper. Definitely neither handing nor passing.
If 4th down, or a try, the fumble rule would apply, too.

[Farooq]

I think this is actually a delayed handoff, as it does not qualify as a pass (it is not thrown). So if A45 was a back at the snap this is legal even if it is forward.

Very interesting and obscure. I have never seen anything like this before for sure: using third player's back for delayed transfer of the ball
So technically handing the ball doesnt mean necessary direct transfer of the ball from hand to hand.
A49 was on the the line at snap.
In this case I presume it would be legal if QB A10 put ball on A30's back who lied on the ground behind A10, right?

[Kalle]

In this case I presume it would be legal if QB A10 put ball on A30's back who lied on the ground behind A10, right?

Assuming this isn't in the vicinity of the snapper, I'd say it is a legal handoff in that case. Rule 2 is a bit vague on if a loose ball must always be either a handoff, a pass, a kick, or a fumble, but I want to classify this into one of these categories so there would be some rules governing the action.

[Farooq]

Thank you for clarification. Unfortunately I didnt have much time for consultation and made quick decision based on my understanding that it was a ball in flight after backward pass. TD

[Farooq]

Assuming this isn't in the vicinity of the snapper, I'd say it is a legal handoff in that case. Rule 2 is a bit vague on if a loose ball must always be either a handoff, a pass, a kick, or a fumble, but I want to classify this into one of these categories so there would be some rules governing the action.

I have always assumed that rule applies only to loose ball on the ground. If say a QB under center makes quick side-handoff on neighbor back under guard or flips ball to him its legal transfer in vicinity of snapper which I witnessed in NCAA from time to time in trick plays. But case from this theme obviously differs. The ball was intentionally left for other player to pick it up in particular place although not on the ground

[dammitbobby]

Where was A30 laying in relation to the snapper?

[ElvisLives]

Handing of the ball requires transfer of player possession of the ball without fumbling it. Fumbling it is any loss of player possession other than passing, kicking, or successful handing. The action described is a fumble, even though the loss of player possession appears to be intentional. For a ball to be classified as having been fumbled does not require that it touch the ground, or be unintentional.
Without video I could certainly be wrong, but the fact that this action is described as a ‘sneak’ conjures a vision of it being immediately in the vicinity of the snapper. That rule makes no reference to the ball touching the ground. If the BC consciously places the ball on the ground or another player almost immediately after the snap, and within one player position to either side of the snapper, or a similar distance behind the snapper, that is definitely in the vicinity of the snapper and would certainly seem to qualify as a foul for a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

[Farooq]

[Farooq]

If the BC consciously places the ball on the ground or another player almost immediately after the snap, and within one player position to either side of the snapper, or a similar distance behind the snapper, that is definitely in the vicinity of the snapper and would certainly seem to qualify as a foul for a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

I got you. The main point that BC left ball intentionally in vicinity (doesnt matter ground or someone body part) for it being picked up and there was no legal handoff or legal backward pass

[dammitbobby]

OK I understand what happened now. What wasn't clear to me, was where A30 was laying, and where A45 was.  Based on the drawing, I would have this as a planned loose ball foul; I would say A30's position is in the vicinity of the snapper.

[ElvisLives]

I got you. The main point that BC left ball intentionally somewhere for it being picked up and there was no legal handoff or legal backward pass

Essentially, correct. But “somewhere” has to be in the vicinity of the snapper, which, unfortunately, is not defined. In your diagram, it appears that, after the snap:
-A30 laid on the ground behind the left guard, then
-A10 placed the ball on A30, but not in his player possession, then
-A45 crouched over A30, to conceal the ball, then
-after a second or so, A45 grabs the ball off of A30 and advanced the ball.
And all of this happened more or less behind the left guard.

I’d have a foul for a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper. 5 yards, previous spot, LOD.

[Kalle]

Handing of the ball requires transfer of player possession of the ball without fumbling it. Fumbling it is any loss of player possession other than passing, kicking, or successful handing. The action described is a fumble, even though the loss of player possession appears to be intentional. For a ball to be classified as having been fumbled does not require that it touch the ground, or be unintentional.

You are absolutely right - I didn't bother checking the fumble definition and assumed that it only applies for unintentional acts, which it doesn't.

[Kalle]

I want to meet the coach who is crazy enough to plan and actually run this play...

[Farooq]

I want to meet the coach who is crazy enough to plan and actually run this play...

Believe me there was a time in our league when almost every week teams came up with something crazy and special. Coaches there are commonly young guys too who listen to their student players offering different unusual plays to run. A45 made walk-in TD without any reaction from defense which were fully dragged in sneak. Boys enjoyed this deceiving very much thanks to my missed call
Well now Iam armed and dangerous if someone tries to repeat

[Etref]

Another thing, covered by another player bent over.

Was the bending player grounded (except for his feet) while in possession of the ball?

My theory has always been on trick plays to be fairly strict. If he was grounded ball would be dead at the spot.

Of course I am sure that during pre-game with the coach he failed to tell you about his new trick play.

[Farooq]

Another thing, covered by another player bent over.

Was the bending player grounded (except for his feet) while in possession of the ball?

No A45 was in 4-point stance covering A30 across his back, only both hands and feet on the ground. I noticed it very clearly

Of course I am sure that during pre-game with the coach he failed to tell you about his new trick play.

I wasnt notified in advance

[Etref]

 

[ElvisLives]

Well now I am armed and dangerous if someone tries to repeat

I like that!