Author Topic: head scratchers  (Read 7021 times)

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Offline Navcom

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head scratchers
« on: November 24, 2020, 07:08:20 AM »
A3/18@B-38. Near the end of the game with the offense trailing and neither team having a TO.  The ball is snapped with 1:11 on the clock. A88 catches a pass over the middle and is immediately tackled by B77 in bounds at the B25 (1:02).  B77 is slow to get up and the SJ stops the clock for an Injury TO (0:55). Replay has IVE that B77 is holding his leg at 1:01.  Ruling? Clock? Replay?

 
A4/G@B-5. A88 is forced OB in the back of the EZ but immediately returns in bounds. A1 throws a pass to A88 and A88 jumps high into the air and controls the pass but he is hit hard by B21. A88 would have come down inbounds, but the hit by B21 forces him to land out of bounds. Ruling? Clock?

Offline Kalle

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 07:24:23 AM »
The first question is a replay question so I leave that to the experts.

In the second question we have an incomplete legal forward pass. A88 doesn't commit any foul as he returns immediately after being forced out of bounds - and in any case the penalty would have the same result. NCAA doesn't have (it did have once, a long time ago) a concept of a force-out, so A88 doesn't complete the catch (note that if B21 obviously holds A88, things are different). Team B 1/10@B-5.

Offline bossman72

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 08:19:06 AM »
1) This happened a few weeks ago.  This is a 10 sec runoff from 0:55 to 0:45.  It's not when the injury happens but when the officials stop it that matters.  Kind of like when a coach calls a time out.

2) Agree with Kalle - the "force out" has been wiped out of existence from all levels of football.

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 11:15:59 AM »
Quote
This happened a few weeks ago.  This is a 10 sec runoff from 0:55 to 0:45.

Be careful here. The offense is losing and this is a defensive injury. The offense is going to decline the runoff, so the clock will stay at :55 and start on the snap.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 01:24:43 PM »
NCAA doesn't have (it did have once, a long time ago) a concept of a force-out,...

Kalle, you and I don't disagree often, but, unless you know something different prior to 1972, "force out" has always been a successful defensive tool, causing an incomplete pass per NCAA rules. That was one of the first major differences between NFL rules and NCAA rules that I learned in 1972 (+). I know the rule has never allowed for it. If there was a philosophy, I am not aware of it. Have you got some documentation regarding this?

As for the NFL, yes it was at least a philosophy, if not a rule, for at least a similar period of time. Perhaps that has changed in the past decade - I really can't speak to that. 


Offline Kalle

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 02:00:27 PM »
Kalle, you and I don't disagree often, but, unless you know something different prior to 1972, "force out" has always been a successful defensive tool, causing an incomplete pass per NCAA rules.

I have a really strong feeling that there was some kind of a major change in the NCAA rules related to this in the 90's? Early 2000's? My rule books go back only to 2000, and A.R. 2-2-7-III is already present then.

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2020, 02:11:25 PM »
2007 was the last year the NFL had a force out rule. I'm with Robert on this one. I don't believe NCAA has ever had a force-out clause.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2020, 02:50:52 PM »
I have a really strong feeling that there was some kind of a major change in the NCAA rules related to this in the 90's? Early 2000's? My rule books go back only to 2000, and A.R. 2-2-7-III is already present then.

I will check my old books and see if AR 2-2-7-III existed in 1972. (When I get home from work - I'm supposed to be working right now.   ;))

Online ElvisLives

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2020, 09:02:40 PM »
That AR first appeared in 1986. I was 14 years into my career. I don’t recall exactly what happened or why, but prior to that year, there were 51 ARs in the Interpretations, but they started in Rule 3, and were all consecutively numbered through the end of the book. At that time, the Interpretations consisted mostly of text, expounding on the rules, and explaining their purpose and how they were to be applied. The ARs were used to offer examples of what they were explaining in the text.
In 1986, the ARs were re-numbered per Rule, as we see them now, and this AR appeared. I vaguely think it appeared because a few officiating groups or individuals were incorrectly applying the NFL’s rule/interpretation/philosophy regarding a ‘force out.’ So this AR was put in place to clarify the NCAA rule, which, I recall the rules makers wanted in place, to allow the defense to be able to use the sideline as a defensive tool.
Sometime shortly before 2000, the ‘text’ was incorporated into the body of the rules, and the Interpretations section of the book became strictly ARs, as we see it today.



Offline Kalle

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 01:19:57 AM »
That AR first appeared in 1986. I was 14 years into my career. I don’t recall exactly what happened or why, but prior to that year, there were 51 ARs in the Interpretations, but they started in Rule 3, and were all consecutively numbered through the end of the book. At that time, the Interpretations consisted mostly of text, expounding on the rules, and explaining their purpose and how they were to be applied. The ARs were used to offer examples of what they were explaining in the text.
In 1986, the ARs were re-numbered per Rule, as we see them now, and this AR appeared. I vaguely think it appeared because a few officiating groups or individuals were incorrectly applying the NFL’s rule/interpretation/philosophy regarding a ‘force out.’ So this AR was put in place to clarify the NCAA rule, which, I recall the rules makers wanted in place, to allow the defense to be able to use the sideline as a defensive tool.

This probably explains my "faulty" memory. Back in the '80's (football started in Finland at about 1979) and 90's we had our own Finnish rule book which did somewhat track the NCAA changes, but nowhere near as well as the current IFAF rules do (unfortunately I don't have a copy in my archives). It is likely that we adopted the A.R. late in the 90's after I started my career (in 1991).

Online ElvisLives

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2020, 08:30:19 AM »
This probably explains my "faulty" memory. Back in the '80's (football started in Finland at about 1979) and 90's we had our own Finnish rule book which did somewhat track the NCAA changes, but nowhere near as well as the current IFAF rules do (unfortunately I don't have a copy in my archives). It is likely that we adopted the A.R. late in the 90's after I started my career (in 1991).

You think you're memory is faulty? Ha. I keep looking for my reading glasses, only to find that I am already wearing them. Getting old is...

Wouldn't it be nice to meet someday? That would be my honor and privilege.  Obviously, Thanksgiving (tomorrow) is a U.S. holiday and celebration, but, I will raise a toast to you, and all good people around the world, in hopes that we all can live safely, prosperously, and happily. Cheers, my friend! eAt&

Offline Kalle

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2020, 02:00:48 PM »
Wouldn't it be nice to meet someday? That would be my honor and privilege.  Obviously, Thanksgiving (tomorrow) is a U.S. holiday and celebration, but, I will raise a toast to you, and all good people around the world, in hopes that we all can live safely, prosperously, and happily. Cheers, my friend! eAt&

It would be nice to meet up with quite a few of the folks here in RefStrips, you very much included. I've been thinking about doing a tourist tour to US and that might include a trip to Texas :)

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the rest over there! Be safe and live long and happily.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2020, 03:12:19 PM »
It would be nice to meet up with quite a few of the folks here in RefStrips, you very much included. I've been thinking about doing a tourist tour to US and that might include a trip to Texas :)

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the rest over there! Be safe and live long and happily.

Texas is a big place, but I would go out my way to make the connection, should you choose to visit. I keep playing the lottery, and, if I ever win, Europe is a place I would like to visit.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: head scratchers
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2020, 09:48:56 AM »
You think you're memory is faulty? Ha. I keep looking for my reading glasses, only to find that I am already wearing them. Getting old is...


This reminds me of the day I pulled into the driveway and was looking for my phone.  I was looking in the seats and in the floor board.   I was cussing out loud out of frustration.  A voice inquires, "Are you looking for the same phone you are talking to me on?"   Yep, that's the one.   hEaDbAnG