Author Topic: Loose Ball Play  (Read 434 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Loose Ball Play
« on: February 21, 2021, 09:49:47 PM »
is my understanding correct that a hike to the quarterback in shot gun formation is a loose ball for the purposes of penalty enforcement and as long as the qb has the ball behind the line of scrimmage it is just a continuation of the loose ball play?   For example: 

I am thinking of a play where the qb receives the ball in shotgun and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage.  The penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is the previous spot becaues it was a loose ball play.

In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?


Offline SCline

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 10:45:06 PM »
Quote
is my understanding correct that a hike to the quarterback in shot gun formation is a loose ball for the purposes of penalty enforcement and as long as the qb has the ball behind the line of scrimmage it is just a continuation of the loose ball play?

No. 10-3-1 & -2 the loose ball play does not include the action after the quarterback receives the snap. That action is a separate running play.

Quote
I am thinking of a play where the qb receives the ball in shotgun and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage.  The penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is the previous spot becaues it was a loose ball play.

In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?

In both instances the face mask penalty would be enforced from the end of the run.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2021, 05:42:39 AM »
is my understanding correct that a hike to the quarterback in shot gun formation is a loose ball for the purposes of penalty enforcement and as long as the qb has the ball behind the line of scrimmage it is just a continuation of the loose ball play?

You are correct that the snap here is part if a loose ball play. Any penalty that occurs during this interval is enforced as a loose ball play.

You are not correct on the second part of this statement.  The loose ball play ended when the runner gained possession. A foul with runner in possession is enforced as a running play.



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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2021, 08:43:48 AM »
The details, as they frequently are, come from Rule 2 - Definitions.  See Sections 2-1 and 2-33.
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Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2021, 08:44:09 AM »
In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?

One thing I hate about the penalty enforcement rule is the word "play".  People confuse it with "down".  You can have multiple plays during the down.  Think of it as "status of the ball at the time of the foul."

When the ball is snapped in shotgun, the ball is in loose ball status.  QB receives the ball and scrambles, the ball is in run status.  He is tackled by the facemask, so the ball was in run status at the time of the foul, so you enforce it from the end of that related run.

If the ball is in a loose ball status (say the QB throws the ball after he gets facemasked), all action prior to that loose ball get absorbed into that loose ball status/play.  So, your basic spot would be the previous spot, because that run (QB scramble) gets converted from run to loose ball status.

Online HLinNC

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2021, 09:32:04 AM »
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The details, as they frequently are, come from Rule 2 - Definitions.

Which would also include using the term "snap" instead of "hike".

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 09:33:47 AM »
If the ball is in a loose ball status (say the QB throws the ball after he gets facemasked), all action prior to that loose ball get absorbed into that loose ball status/play.  So, your basic spot would be the previous spot, because that run (QB scramble) gets converted from run to loose ball status.
[/quote]

....if the qb continues to scramble even for some time after the face mask and then throws the ball it is all still one big 'loose ball' play during the 'down'?   

got it. (I think).  I have had referees ask me if during a defensive holding penalty if the holding occurred before or during the pass.  It really wouldn't matter would it?  The penalty under both would be enforced at the previous spot?


Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 09:39:40 AM »
Which would also include using the term "snap" instead of "hike".
[/quote

The moderators, probably Kalle, is busy now devising a filter to auto correct the word 'hike' to 'snap'....... ;D

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 09:42:37 AM »
BACKWARD PASS.....testing 1.2.3.......

......edited to add that it still works.  I typed 'l...a..t..e..r...a...l' and 'backward pass' replaced it automatically.  An ingenious form of thought control!! hEaDbAnG
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 09:45:25 AM by Derek Teigen »

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 09:50:34 AM »

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that's tough on the offense if because of the facemask the qb could NOT throw the ball whereas if he could have thrown it alot of yards could have been gained due to the basic spot being different.

Online HLinNC

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 10:28:34 AM »
Quote
I have had referees ask me if during a defensive holding penalty if the holding occurred before or during the pass.  It really wouldn't matter would it?  The penalty under both would be enforced at the previous spot?

That isn't why they are asking you that question.  If the defensive hold occcurs during the pass, it can be DPI instead of def. holding.

Online Kalle

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2021, 10:41:15 AM »
BACKWARD PASS.....testing 1.2.3.......

......edited to add that it still works.  I typed 'l...a..t..e..r...a...l' and 'backward pass' replaced it automatically.  An ingenious form of thought control!! hEaDbAnG

I don't much mind words like "hike" or "offsides", but I do stand by the infamous L-word autocorrect  :sTiR: (of course if some other admin removes it, I'll live  ;) )

Online AlUpstateNY

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2021, 11:47:10 AM »
If the ball is in a loose ball status (say the QB throws the ball after he gets facemasked), all action prior to that loose ball get absorbed into that loose ball status/play.  So, your basic spot would be the previous spot, because that run (QB scramble) gets converted from run to loose ball status.


....if the qb continues to scramble even for some time after the face mask and then throws the ball it is all still one big 'loose ball' play during the 'down'?

Both NFHS 10-3-1-c and 2-33-1-d contain the same "note", "The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumbles (are)."  (SNAP- 2-40-1-3).

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2021, 01:15:59 PM »
Let me just make a note here that anybody that wants to get into NCAA (collegiate) football, the NCAA rules regarding the situations being discussed here are very different. So, again, when that time comes, be ready to forget what you know (more or less) and study. A lot. And, in the meantime, don't offer criticism of NCAA guys for doing something differently than what may be correct for NFHS. Just like I don't criticize NFL guys for anything they do. Way different rules.

 

Online AlUpstateNY

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2021, 01:24:03 PM »
Let me just make a note here that anybody that wants to get into NCAA (collegiate) football, the NCAA rules regarding the situations being discussed here are very different. So, again, when that time comes, be ready to forget what you know (more or less) and study. A lot. And, in the meantime, don't offer criticism of NCAA guys for doing something differently than what may be correct for NFHS. Just like I don't criticize NFL guys for anything they do. Way different rules.

Always a good idea to KNOW where you are, and good advice suggests, "When in Rome, do like a Roman".

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2021, 05:06:09 PM »
Both NFHS 10-3-1-c and 2-33-1-d contain the same "note", "The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumbles (are)."  (SNAP- 2-40-1-3).

ok.  so it doesn't really matter if the snap is in shotgun or directly over center....a snap includes either.  Then everything that happens from the snap to and proceeds a 'legal forward pass, a backward pass,  an illegal kick, or a fumble in or behind the neutral zone' gets converted to one big loose ball play and the basic spot for all fouls (except offensive holding which is a spot foul behind the los) is the previous spot.  Taking it a step further it is not necessary to bean bag a fumble spot 'behind' the line of scrimmage because if any change of possession and penalty on A they would just decline the penalty!  If change of possession and penalty on B then they got the ball with 'hands dirty' and the penalty is enforced from the basic spot with is the previous spot.  I think I am getting it.  thank you!  edited to include 'backward pass'.  edited again to include offensive holding....
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 05:43:16 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2021, 07:18:33 PM »
The snap is a loose ball play that typically ends when a player gains possession or the ball becomes dead by rule. If a foul occurs before either of those things happen, the basic spot of enforcement is the previous spot.

Once a player gains control, a running play begins and continues until the player is downed, or the ball becomes loose again behind the line of scrimmage. If a foul occurs while the player is in possession, the basic spot for penalty enforcement is the end of the run. 

If the player in possession crosses the line of scrimmage, there can not be another loose ball play, unless the player retreats back behind the line of scrimmage. The basic spot for any foul while the ball is in possession or is loose BEYOND the line of scrimmage is the end of the related run.

If the ball becomes loose behind the line of scrimmage after the runner has gained possession, it is a loose ball play, and continues to be a loose ball play until it becomes dead or is possessed.

If it becomes dead after being loose behind the line, all action from the snap to the dead ball is included in the loose ball play, and the basic spot is the previous spot.

If the ball is possessed beyond the line after becoming loose behind the line, everything that happened before the possession is part of the loose ball play. Everything that happens after possession is part of a running play.

I’m sure I left something out.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 12:37:18 AM »
ok.  so it doesn't really matter if the snap is in shotgun or directly over center....a snap includes either.  Then everything that happens from the snap to and proceeds a 'legal forward pass, a backward pass,  an illegal kick, or a fumble in or behind the neutral zone' gets converted to one big loose ball play and the basic spot for all fouls (except offensive holding which is a spot foul behind the los) is the previous spot.  Taking it a step further it is not necessary to bean bag a fumble spot 'behind' the line of scrimmage because if any change of possession and penalty on A they would just decline the penalty!  If change of possession and penalty on B then they got the ball with 'hands dirty' and the penalty is enforced from the basic spot with is the previous spot.  I think I am getting it.  thank you!  edited to include 'backward pass'.  edited again to include offensive holding....

This may help.  I drew up this document to help beginners with penalty enforcement.

Look at the diagram on page 3. It's best to think of these as a timeline and when did the foul happen in that timeline.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 07:38:03 AM »
This may help.  I drew up this document to help beginners with penalty enforcement.

Look at the diagram on page 3. It's best to think of these as a timeline and when did the foul happen in that timeline.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing
This is good stuff. If you don’t mind, I’m going to “borrow” a copy of this to pass out to my guys.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 08:56:52 AM »
Absolutely!

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2021, 12:19:20 PM »
Thanks Bossman, nice summary/training document!   :)
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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2021, 10:38:40 PM »
Thanks Bossman for posting that and thanks to everybody else for their clarifications.  This is the first time I have had a clear understanding of a loose ball play especially behind the LOS and how everything that happens prior to that gets converted to a loose ball for penalty enforcement.

I want to be that guy who can help  the crew if needed on enforcement spots.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2021, 12:11:51 AM »
Thanks guys.  I'll post a couple other things I have dealing with penalty enforcement that may help:

Clean Hands
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k40TMU430x-McHhcneR2WOSxmLOJUu0UtZIE2Gxpfw4/edit?usp=sharing

Bridge to Kickoff chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcoPfzCkGIx2s-vFTpwPsCcZ2GEQCWHuNnAQMZTIFcA/edit?usp=sharing

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2021, 07:45:32 AM »
Thanks guys.  I'll post a couple other things I have dealing with penalty enforcement that may help:

Thanks Bossman, more good stuff.  We have our first "2020" meeting tonight (online meeting) for our Fall II season that is planning on kicking off next month here in MA.  Hopefully we manage to keep our relatively recent NFHS training in our memory banks after many years of NCAA rules.   :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 04:12:53 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Online dammitbobby

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #24 on: Today at 09:13:07 AM »
Thanks guys.  I'll post a couple other things I have dealing with penalty enforcement that may help:

Clean Hands
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k40TMU430x-McHhcneR2WOSxmLOJUu0UtZIE2Gxpfw4/edit?usp=sharing

Bridge to Kickoff chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcoPfzCkGIx2s-vFTpwPsCcZ2GEQCWHuNnAQMZTIFcA/edit?usp=sharing

These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.